# LOTR Question: Gandalf v. Witch King **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 1, 2008, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-gandalf-v-witch-king/475191 "2008-12-01T16:15:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-gandalf-v-witch-king/475191/41 "2008-12-02T03:41:10Z")
> [@MichaelQReilly](#): > > So in your opinion QTM, given that Sauron completely controlled the Witch King, what was he trying to achieve by having him fight Gandalf? Pretty much what **What Exit** said. WK’s will was wholly subordinate to Sauron’s, but he still had a will of his own. He was more than a puppet. He was a dog who could _not_ disobey his master’s commands. But unless told not to chase cats (not Tevildo), or lick himself, he still would, if it pleased him. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-gandalf-v-witch-king/475191/42 "2008-12-02T04:17:41Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > Pretty much what **What Exit** said. > > WK’s will was wholly subordinate to Sauron’s, but he still had a will of his own. He was more than a puppet. He was a dog who could _not_ disobey his master’s commands. But unless told not to chase cats (not Tevildo), or lick himself, he still would, if it pleased him. Was his relationship with Sauron analogous to Sauron’s relationship with Morgoth? WK = commander of # fortress Minas Morgul while Sauron = commander of #2 fortress Angband. If the Witch King hadn’t been cut down, would it have been possible to arise as a Dark Lord in his own right after Sauron’s demise? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-gandalf-v-witch-king/475191/43 "2008-12-02T04:30:40Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > Was his relationship with Sauron analogous to Sauron’s relationship with Morgoth? WK = commander of # fortress Minas Morgul while Sauron = commander of #2 fortress Angband. > > If the Witch King hadn’t been cut down, would it have been possible to arise as a Dark Lord in his own right after Sauron’s demise? No, to the first. The WK was Sauron’s _creation_. Without the Rings, the Nazgul would all have died a natural death in their time. Their…er…“wraithitude” was completely created by Sauron. Sauron was not created by Morgoth, but rather corrupted by him. No, to the last. Morgoth and Sauron were both Ainur, beings ultimately outside of Arda, if currently clothed in the substance of Arda. The Witch-King was ultimately a mortal, tied to immortality through Sauron’s power. Without Sauron’s power, the WK was nothing, as were all of the Nazgul. This is why they simply ceased functioning when the Ring fell into the Sammath Naur. Without the Ring, which held a very large portion of Sauron’s power, the Nazgul couldn’t “hold it together”, literally. ---
**Author:** ![TWDuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@TWDuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWDuke)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-gandalf-v-witch-king/475191/44 "2008-12-02T09:09:21Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > Gandalf would have mopped the floor with the Witch-King, if he’d dare to stand up to Gandalf. The Nazgul were not in the same league as Gandalf, and never were, even when Gandalf was the Grey (who did take out a Balrog, after all). > > The Nazguls’ chief weapon was the unreasoning fear they inspired. To the fearless they held little threat. That’s how Aragorn was able to drive them off on Weathertop. I’m not sure it’s as cut and dried as that. > [@Gandalf](#): > > '[My] heart sank. For **even the Wise might fear to withstand the Nine, when they are gathered together under their fell chieftain** … “Who told you, and who sent you?” I asked. > > '“Saruman the White,” answered Radagast. “And he told me to say that if you feel the need, he will help; but you must seek his aid at once, or it will be too late.” > > 'And that message brought me hope. For Saruman the White is the greatest of my order. Radagast is… a worthy Wizard… and he has much lore of herbs and beasts, and birds are especially his friends. But Saruman has long studied the arts of the Enemy himself, and thus we have often been able to forestall him… It might be that he had found some weapons that would drive back the Nine. > > '“I will go to Saruman,” I said. > > '“Then you must go now,” said Radagast; “for… the days are running short. I was told to find you before Midsummer, and that is now here. Even if you set out from this spot, you will hardly reach him before the Nine discover the land that they seek.”… And with that he mounted and would have ridden straight off. > > '“Stay a moment!” I said. “We shall need your help… Send out messages to all the beasts and birds that are your friends. Tell them to bring news of anything that bears on this matter to Saruman and Gandalf. Let messages be sent to Orthanc.” > > ‘“I will do that,” he said, and rode off as if the Nine were after him.’ This passage shows that wizards did have reason to fear the nazgul. They are not merely human in their power: "“The power of their master is in them.” Of course the Witch-King is only one of the nine, but he is described as the most powerful in every way. > [@](#): > > ‘ **Then, Mithrandir, you had a foe to match you** ,’ said Denethor. ‘For myself, I have long known who is the chief captain of the hosts of the Dark Tower. Is this all that you have returned to say? Or can it be that you have withdrawn because you are overmatched?’ > Pippin trembled, fearing Gandalf wound be stung to sudden wrath, but his fear was needless. ‘ **It might be so,** ’ Gandalf answered softly. ‘But our trial of strength is not yet come.’ ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-gandalf-v-witch-king/475191/45 "2008-12-02T13:31:07Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > Was his relationship with Sauron analogous to Sauron’s relationship with Morgoth? WK = commander of # fortress Minas Morgul while Sauron = commander of #2 fortress Angband. > > If the Witch King hadn’t been cut down, would it have been possible to arise as a Dark Lord in his own right after Sauron’s demise? The nazgul were unlikely to even survive Sauron and it is believed they could not survive the destruction of the One Ring. At best they would have been shadows of their former selves. If you were looking for someone to rise up from Sauron’s followers then the Mouth of Sauron was probably more likely. We know nearly nothing about him but he seemed important and schooled in dark sorcery. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-gandalf-v-witch-king/475191/46 "2008-12-02T14:17:17Z")
> [@TWDuke](#): > > Not really. He was “sent back” for a brief time once - no guarantee it would happen again - and it was a while before he was able to return to action. Nonetheless, it makes for quite an advantage when you can look your opponent in the eye and say, “Yeah, I remember the last guy who killed me. Now I’m still here and he’s not.” ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-gandalf-v-witch-king/475191/47 "2008-12-02T14:23:10Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Partially, but all of **War Craft** owes a large inspirational debt to Tolkien anyway so it is nothing new. You misspelled ‘virtually all works of RPG fantasy’. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-gandalf-v-witch-king/475191/48 "2008-12-02T14:44:31Z")
> [@Captain\_Carrot](#): > > You misspelled ‘virtually all works of RPG fantasy’. True dat. Especially if they were written by Terry Brooks. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-gandalf-v-witch-king/475191/49 "2008-12-02T16:59:44Z")
> [@Quasimodem](#): > > I didn’t, however, expect such a very interesting _Lord of the Rings_ inquisition. No one does, no one does . . . ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-gandalf-v-witch-king/475191/50 "2008-12-02T17:01:59Z")
NOBODY expects the Manwe-ish Inquisition! ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-gandalf-v-witch-king/475191/51 "2008-12-02T17:07:28Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > No one does, no one does . . . > [@jayjay](#): > > NOBODY expects the Manwe-ish Inquisition! You know strangely enough Eönwë is probably the right Maia to lead said Inquisition. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2008, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-gandalf-v-witch-king/475191/52 "2008-12-02T23:47:55Z")
> [@TWDuke](#): > > I’m not sure it’s as cut and dried as that. > > This passage shows that wizards did have reason to fear the nazgul. They are not merely human in their power: "“The power of their master is in them.” Of course the Witch-King is only one of the nine, but he is described as the most powerful in every way. Point taken. Even so, it would appear to take all or most of the Nazgul, acting in concert with their master’s will driving them to rise to the level of a threat to the Wise. And I always considered Gandalf’s comment to Denethor to be rather enigmatic on Gandalf’s part. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2008, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-gandalf-v-witch-king/475191/53 "2008-12-03T02:47:30Z")
> [@Stealth\_Potato](#): > > The chief weapon of the Nazgul was the unreasoning fear they inspired. And surprise. Er, the _two_ chief weapons of the Nazgul were unreasoning fear and surprise. And ruthless efficiency. The _three_ weapons of the Nazgul were unreasoning fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency. …And an almost fanatical dedication to the Dark Lord Sauron. _Among_ the weapons of the Nazgul were such elements as… I’ll come in again. > > 😃 > EDIT: Damn, beaten to the punch! 😛 You need to work on your stealthiness some more methinks. 🆒 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-gandalf-v-witch-king/475191.md?page=2)