# LOTR question {On Bilbo's Ring} **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** middle-earth\ **Created:** [January 16, 2024, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181 "2024-01-16T20:06:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![OttoDaFe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ottodafe/32/356_2.png) [@OttoDaFe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OttoDaFe)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2024, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/41 "2024-01-22T15:49:22Z")
> [@Love\_Rhombus](#): > > … So in theory Smaug could have melted Gandalf’s Ring? Gandalf to Frodo: > It has been said that dragon-fire could melt and consume the Rings of Power, but there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough; nor was there ever any dragon, not even Ancalagon the Black, who could have harmed the One Ring, the Ruling Ring, for that was made by Sauron himself. Granted Smaug was dead before this exchange, but it seems that by his time the “old fire” had diminshed. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2024, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/42 "2024-01-22T16:59:39Z")
Also important to remember that prior to the sack of Eregion, Sauron had no rings to hand out. So it’s curious to wonder who wearing the other great rings - I’d guess the leadership of the Gwaith-i-Mírdain. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2024, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/43 "2024-01-22T17:09:45Z")
> [@markn\_1](#): > > I think there’s a real inconsistency in the book about this, which has always bothered me. Gandalf does talk about “lesser” rings, but he also says, talking about his feelings at the time Bilbo got the Ring from Gollum, “I wondered often how Gollum came by a Great Ring, _as plainly it was – that at least was clear from the first_” (emphasis added). So he never thought that Bilbo’s ring was one of the lesser rings; he always knew it was one of the 20 Great Rings. But in the same conversation he gives an account of those rings: “The Three, fairest of all, the Elf-lords hid from him… Seven the Dwarf-kings possessed, but three he has recovered, and the others the dragons have consumed. … The Nine he has gathered to himself; the Seven also, or else they are destroyed.” > > So how could Gandalf have not come to the conclusion that Bilbo’s was the One Ring years ago? Which Ring did he think it was, if the Three were hidden, and the Seven and the Nine were either in Sauron’s possession or destroyed? Reading this passage years ago, I always thought Gandalf’s assumption was that Bilbo’s ring was one of the Seven, most likely one that had not actually been consumed by dragons as was thought to be the case. Or maybe in the intervening years, Sauron had subsequently lost one of the Seven that he had recovered, or released it for reasons known only to himself. Or perhaps even one of the Nine. After all, what happens if a Ring-wraith is destroyed? Despite the wraith’s ring nominally being in Sauron’s “possession,” it clearly is not in his physical possession, since the wraiths wear the rings far from Sauron’s presence. And at the time of Gandalf’s early suppositions, were all nine Ringwraiths accounted for? IIRC, it was not until years later that it was noteworthy that all nine Ringwraiths were again on the move (and actively searching for the One Ring). ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2024, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/44 "2024-01-22T17:34:44Z")
How certain was Gandalf that the ring-poem of twenty great rings was an accounting of _all_ the great rings? Or, what was more likely: that Gollum had somehow acquired the One Ring, or that Sauron had more rings forged in secret? With the Free Peoples fates at risk, could he have dispensed with the latter before making the positive identification of the One? ---
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2024, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/45 "2024-01-22T18:05:27Z")
> [@robby](#): > > Reading this passage years ago, I always thought Gandalf’s assumption was that Bilbo’s ring was one of the Seven, most likely one that had not actually been consumed by dragons as was thought to be the case. … > > Or perhaps even one of the Nine. Well, one of those cases may have been possible, but it’s not what Gandalf believed. In telling Frodo why he thinks Sauron is now actively searching for Bilbo’s ring, he says “He knows that it is a Great Ring, for it gave long life. He knows that it is not one of the Three, for for they have never been lost, and they endure no evil. He knows that it is not one of the Seven, or the Nine, for they are accounted for. He knows that it is the One.” If Gandalf believed that one of the Seven or the Nine, or any additional unknown Great Rings, could still be on the loose, he wouldn’t have said this about Sauron’s thinking. And since he says that it was “clear from the first” to him that Bilbo’s ring was a Great Ring, it seems uncharacteristically dense of him not to have followed this same reasoning 80 years earlier. BTW, I’m not sure the Ringwraiths were actually wearing their rings. There are some statements that arguably suggest that Sauron had them in his possession. Galadriel tells Frodo, “You saw the Eye of him that holds the Seven and the Nine”. While she may have meant “holds” metaphorically, in _The Hunt for the Ring_ in _Unfinished Tales_, it says “They [the Ringwraiths] were by far the most powerful of his servants, and the most suitable for such a mission, since they were entirely enslaved to their Nine Rings, which he now himself held.” While perhaps not canonical since Tolkien himself didn’t publish it, it shows what he thought was the case at least at some point. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2024, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/46 "2024-01-22T18:16:17Z")
But that sounds like what he thought after he figured out it was the One Ring. I thought the question was what he thought when Bilbo first got it. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2024, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/47 "2024-01-22T18:49:56Z")
And when Bilbo first got it, he didn’t know it would extend Bilbo’s life. ---
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2024, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/48 "2024-01-22T18:57:35Z")
But he says that it was “clear from the first” to him that it was a Great Ring, even if he hadn’t yet seen its corroborating life-extending ability. That’s the big inconsistency. If that statement is omitted, there’s no problem; he thought it was a lesser ring until over the years he became convinced otherwise. It’s not actually evident why this was “clear from the first”; maybe lesser rings don’t in fact confer invisibility, although I don’t think this is mentioned anywhere. The only viable explanation I can think of is that Gandalf in fact did not know where the other 19 rings were at the time Bilbo found his, as robby suggests. But he talks about knowledge of the rings as something long known ("I have known much that only the Wise know’). ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2024, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/49 "2024-01-22T19:27:52Z")
Let’s face it: Gandalf was a bullshit artist. “I knew it all along.” Yeah, right, and your wizard girlfriend in Canada is super hot. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2024, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/50 "2024-01-22T19:50:32Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > But that sounds like what he thought after he figured out it was the One Ring. I thought the question was what he thought when Bilbo first got it. Right, that’s what my comment was referring to: Gandalf’s thoughts about the nature of the Ring when Bilbo first got it. > [@markn\_1](#): > > BTW, I’m not sure the Ringwraiths were actually wearing their rings. There are some statements that arguably suggest that Sauron had them in his possession. Galadriel tells Frodo, “You saw the Eye of him that holds the Seven and the Nine”. While she may have meant “holds” metaphorically, in _The Hunt for the Ring_ in _Unfinished Tales_, it says “They [the Ringwraiths] were by far the most powerful of his servants, and the most suitable for such a mission, since they were entirely enslaved to their Nine Rings, which he now himself held.” While perhaps not canonical since Tolkien himself didn’t publish it, it shows what he thought was the case at least at some point. This is a good point. I agree that it is not at all clear that the Ringwraiths did actually wear their rings, and now think it is likely that they did not. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2024, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/51 "2024-01-22T20:09:34Z")
> [@robby](#): > > I agree that it is not at all clear that the Ringwraiths did actually wear their rings, and now think it is likely that they did not. I agree. I cannot find anything that is explicit about this but I think Sauron took their rings back (obviously the nine had them at some point which made them into Ring Wraiths but once converted I was under the impression that Sauron took their rings back). Although, this makes me wonder why Sauron would want them back and not give them to nine other humans. ETA: I have a vague memory that Sauron wanted all the rings back. Not sure why or even if I am right about that. ---
**Author:** ![Capn\_Carl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/838e76/32.png) [@Capn\_Carl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capn_Carl)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2024, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/52 "2024-01-22T20:39:56Z")
Galadriel used hers to keep Lorien safe. Maybe Elrond did the same for Rivendell. Gandalf just liked to burn things. ---
**Author:** ![Capn\_Carl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/838e76/32.png) [@Capn\_Carl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capn_Carl)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2024, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/53 "2024-01-22T20:42:49Z")
Saruman dabbled in ring-making and was wearing one when he imprisoned Gandalf. I imagine G thinking, “Oooh, you got your own magic ring now? That ain’t shit.” ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2024, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/54 "2024-01-22T22:30:22Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Although, this makes me wonder why Sauron would want them back and not give them to nine other humans. They’re still effecting a magic influence on the Wraiths, keeping them under Sauron’s control, and possibly even keeping them from dissolving into nothingness. If he gave the Nine to others, these effects on the Wraiths would likely fail. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2024, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/55 "2024-01-22T22:40:15Z")
> [@OttoDaFe](#): > > Granted Smaug was dead before this exchange, but it seems that by his time the “old fire” had diminshed. I read “There is not now any dragon left on Earth…” as meaning “…thanks to the actions of your uncle and his friends”. Smaug was, after all, powerful enough to get Gandalf invested in making sure he was taken out. > [@Pleonast](#): > > How certain was Gandalf that the ring-poem of twenty great rings was an accounting of _all_ the great rings? Or, what was more likely: that Gollum had somehow acquired the One Ring, or that Sauron had more rings forged in secret? With the Free Peoples fates at risk, could he have dispensed with the latter before making the positive identification of the One? That’s the way I read it, too. Remember, Gandalf was very learned, but he was not the top scholar in the world on the topic of the Rings: That was Saruman. Which is part of the reason why Gandalf went to consult with him. And there are indications that Saruman had himself crafted a Ring, though where that one would fall on the hierarchy of Great vs. Lesser Rings is never specified. ---
**Author:** ![Civil\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d78d45/32.png) [@Civil\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Civil_Guy)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2024, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/56 "2024-01-22T23:03:44Z")
“Even Homer nodded.” It could be that the Professor might have rewritten a passage or two if he had reconsidered the point some more. What I think, hopefully staying within cannon, is that it’s one thing for Gandalf to be pretty sure that Bilbo had the One, and another to know beyond all doubt that Bilbo had the real thing. Elrond and Galadriel were going to want to be certain, at least. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2024, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/57 "2024-01-22T23:16:03Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Let’s face it: Gandalf was a bullshit artist. “I knew it all along.” “So what I told you was true… From a certain point of view.” Right out of the wizard BS playbook. Whether you’re a space wizard or an angel wizard. (But not a pinball wizard, they don’t ever lie, or talk.) ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2024, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/58 "2024-01-22T23:46:35Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > _All_ sources of power are dangerous. Any ring grants power of some sort or other, and so they’re all dangerous. Doesn’t necessarily mean that mortals absolutely shouldn’t use them, but they need to be careful if they do so Pure fanwank, but perhaps Gandalf had some Middle Earth version of Lord Acton’s maxim in mind. This post called to mind his words to Gimli, when they met in Fangorn Forest: _But you speak of him as if he was a friend. I thought Fangorn was dangerous." “Dangerous!” cried Gandalf. “And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord. And Aragorn is dangerous, and Legolas is dangerous. You are beset with dangers, Gimli son of Glóin; for you are dangerous yourself, in your own fashion.”_ ---
**Author:** ![Pavelb1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/439d5e/32.png) [@Pavelb1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pavelb1)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2024, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/59 "2024-01-22T23:53:18Z")
How do you think he does it? ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2024, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/60 "2024-01-22T23:54:35Z")
I don’t know, but I discovered why magic rings are dangerous. [![](https://pbfcomics.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/PBF-Hobbitos.png) ](https://pbfcomics.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/PBF-Hobbitos.png) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181.md?page=4)