# LOTR question {On Bilbo's Ring} **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** middle-earth\ **Created:** [January 16, 2024, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181 "2024-01-16T20:06:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Pavelb1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/439d5e/32.png) [@Pavelb1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pavelb1)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2024, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/61 "2024-01-22T23:56:44Z")
You could also break a tooth or choke on the dumb thing. The Brandywine Business Bureau is slipping. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2024, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/62 "2024-01-23T00:31:23Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I agree. I cannot find anything that is explicit about this but I think Sauron took their rings back (obviously the nine had them at some point which made them into Ring Wraiths but once converted I was under the impression that Sauron took their rings back). There is discussion about Thrain’s Ring (implied as one of the Seven) being taken from him when he was captive in Dol Guldur. That would imply that, when he could, Sauron would physically take back the Rings. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Q](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/898d66/32.png) [@Johnny\_Q](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Q)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2024, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/63 "2024-01-23T01:41:37Z")
A thought: While Sauron still held the One, his will was absolute. Without it, anyone holding one of the lesser rings could use its power to project their own will to a lesser extent and possibly use it to subvert/resist the will of Sauron. If the Dark Lord holds these rings that doesn’t happen. ---
**Author:** ![Coriolanus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coriolanus/32/18769_2.png) [@Coriolanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coriolanus)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2024, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/64 "2024-01-23T07:38:02Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I read “There is not now any dragon left on Earth…” as meaning “…thanks to the actions of your uncle and his friends”. Smaug was, after all, powerful enough to get Gandalf invested in making sure he was taken out. I reckon the Gandalf reason for taking Smaug out was to have a strong Dwarf-hold North of Mirkwood and south of the Dain in the Iron Hills to handle whatever menace the Orcs in the area might cause in the future. Smaug didn’t seem to be too much of a menace beyond Lake Town and if the Necromancer/Sauron/Witch King could have made any use of him they had seemingly not yet tried. I am pretty sure the whole Erebor quest was perhaps something Thorin would be keen to do and Gandalf leveraged that. Balin, it would seem, would have preferred to go to Khazad Dum and that would have been quite a different story. I reckon the Balrog got his (her?) hands on The One Ring she would indeed make some use of Smaug in getting rid of Sauron (or making some use of him and Orcs who quickly and silently build huge Towers). Lorien, then Rivendell wiped out quickly and anyone left better make the Havens and go west pronto. Anyways, I got the feeling from what Gandalf said about melting the ring WRT Smaug is that Dragons are perhaps not inclined to just melt your nice shiny ring any more than they’ll share one silver cup. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2024, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/65 "2024-01-23T13:55:27Z")
I agree, but also, i think Smaug was too minor a dragon to have melted the one ring. ---
**Author:** ![Coriolanus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coriolanus/32/18769_2.png) [@Coriolanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coriolanus)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2024, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/66 "2024-01-23T14:31:06Z")
Exactly how he would know this is never explained - nor is what happens when a dragon “consumes” a ring of power. How did Gandalf know Smaug was the only dragon left and his ring melting/consuming powers? He didn’t even know who the Necromancer was. Witch King was a good bet as Sauron of course had been vanquished and the Barad-dur leveled. Until he and the Council chase him back to a shiny-new Barad-dur and clearly the Witch King and the other eight are still around -and- if Sauron had The One it would have been game over before the Unexpected Party. How about counting the number of Balrogs? If Manwe or Vanya wasn’t imparting that info to Gandallf before shipping him off maybe Glorfindel (even if he wasn’t the original First Age Balrog Killer) might have known? The Trollshaws and a horde of Gondolin materiel is what, a days walk west of the Anduin? And Elrond looks at his great-grandfather Turgon’s sword and is like, cool sword and yeah, don’t want to be caught in them Trollshaws. Dangerous! Okay, sure the overall theme of LotR is the rise of Men (after three ages) and Elrond only had his valley up to the Anduin to control, and Galadriel had a shiny gold forest with tree-houses. Without Sauron wielding The One, whether it really was washed into the Sea or whatever (nobody seemed to care about its fate after Isiuldur was ambushed) - there were three Elven Rings of Power and really only Gandalf ever exerts it. I still want to know what happens when a dragon consumes even a dwarven ring of power and exactly how they ended up out of the picture. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2024, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/67 "2024-01-23T14:42:26Z")
The 7 still exist- despite rumours that say otherwise. Danny DeVito has one. ---
**Author:** ![Coriolanus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coriolanus/32/18769_2.png) [@Coriolanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coriolanus)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2024, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/68 "2024-01-23T14:53:21Z")
I know I’ve missed the edit window, and actually checked a map of middle earth and the it’s the River Bruinen just to the west of Rivendell and pretty much the Trollshaws are on the other side, If you’re heading west - perhaps with a mind to board one of Cirdan’s swan ships, it’s a couple more days till Weathertop and another till you can have a pint in Bree. The Anduin is the Big River where it was almost exactly known where Isiildur was ambushed and, hey, ddn’t he have some shiny ring? It’s not far from that spot that Deagol finds it like 2700 years later. ---
**Author:** ![Capn\_Carl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/838e76/32.png) [@Capn\_Carl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capn_Carl)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2024, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/69 "2024-01-23T15:45:59Z")
> [@Coriolanus](#): > > there were three Elven Rings of Power and really only Gandalf ever exerts it. Tolkien wrote that Galadriel used the power of the ring to protect Lorien. Note that Lorien was nearly impenetrable even with no walls. ---
**Author:** ![OttoDaFe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ottodafe/32/356_2.png) [@OttoDaFe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OttoDaFe)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2024, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/70 "2024-01-23T17:17:09Z")
She also threw down the walls of Dol Guldur, though that was after Sauron’s fall (and presumably before the Three began to fade due to the coming age of Men). ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2024, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/71 "2024-01-23T20:13:41Z")
> [@Coriolanus](#): > > How did Gandalf know Smaug was the only dragon left and his ring melting/consuming powers? He didn’t even know who the Necromancer was. Even more importantly, he didn’t know about Durin’s Bane either. Because the Balrog laid dormant for centuries. Presumably a dragon might as well, especially one of the great ones. I’d say if something like a Balrog could be overlooked by Gandalf, surely a dragon might. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2024, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/72 "2024-01-23T20:19:33Z")
I always had a sense there were many Balrogs but not many dragons. All the dragons were named and accounted for. Presumably Gandalf was able to read the list of known dragons and which had been killed. I think he could not do the same for the Balrogs. Some of them were named but I think there were many more who are more like elite troops. Too many to track and one named one slipped through the cracks. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2024, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/73 "2024-01-23T20:34:09Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > All the dragons were named and accounted for. Presumably Gandalf was able to read the list of known dragons and which had been killed. I never got that impression from the books. And they weren’t all named and accounted for. An unnamed dragon attacked Gondolin during its fall, for example, and attacked Ecthelion and Tuor. Tuor cut its foot with his sword (I think he might have cut it off, I’m not sure) and they escaped while the dragon recoiled. There were reportedly other dragons involved as well, unnamed. As it states in the Silmarillion, Morgoth’s army had dragons “many and terrible”. Certainly _some_ dragons were named, but nothing implies they are rare. Here is a blog post which cites Tolkien himself saying he never attempted to give the impression that dragons were gone. > **[What Happened to the Other Dragons of Middle-earth?](https://middle-earth.xenite.org/what-happened-to-the-other-dragons-of-middle-earth/)** > > Q: What Happened to the Other Dragons of Middle-earth? ANSWER: Everyone knows about Smaug; many readers know about Glaurung. But where were all the other dragons and what were they up to and did th… > And in Letter No. 144 (which he wrote in April 1954) Tolkien said: > > _Some stray answers. Dragons. They had not stopped; since they were active in far later times, close to our own. Have I said anything to suggest the final ending of dragons? If so it should be altered. The only passage I can think of is Vol. I p. 70 : ‘there is not now any dragon left on earth in which the old fire is hot enough’. But that implies, I think, that there are still dragons, if not of full primeval stature…._ From JRR’s own writings, Gandalf was not saying dragons were gone, just that they weren’t as powerful as they used to be. ---
**Author:** ![Capn\_Carl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/838e76/32.png) [@Capn\_Carl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capn_Carl)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2024, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/74 "2024-01-23T21:17:21Z")
Tolkien reduced the total number of balrogs as he wrote. His last estimate was “as few as seven”, IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![Mikkel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikkel/32/13151_2.png) [@Mikkel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mikkel)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2024, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/75 "2024-01-25T16:02:12Z")
> [@Coriolanus](#): > > I still want to know what happens when a dragon consumes even a dwarven ring of power and exactly how they ended up out of the picture. It’s dragon-fire that might consume the Rings. Gandalf says " It has been said that dragon-fire could melt and consume the Rings of Power" I guess that it will melt and turn into vapor. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2024, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/76 "2024-01-25T18:17:46Z")
And not all the dragons were firebreathers. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2024, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/77 "2024-01-26T02:13:51Z")
Ah yes, the cold drakes of Ered Mithrin! ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2024, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/78 "2024-01-26T10:09:33Z")
I bet the cold-drakes felt very insecure around the fire- drakes. I know I would! ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2024, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/79 "2024-01-26T14:52:49Z")
> [@Love\_Rhombus](#): > > I bet the cold-drakes felt very insecure around the fire- drakes I know I would! “Hey, at least _we_ don’t have to worry about setting the living room on fire every time we sneeze.” ---
**Author:** ![Pork\_Rind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pork_rind/32/111_2.png) [@Pork\_Rind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pork_Rind)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2024, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/80 "2024-01-26T15:09:20Z")
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