# LOTR question {On Bilbo's Ring} **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** middle-earth\ **Created:** [January 16, 2024, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181 "2024-01-16T20:06:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Q](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/898d66/32.png) [@Johnny\_Q](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Q)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2024, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/81 "2024-01-26T18:36:29Z")
Ethel Merman? ---
**Author:** ![Coriolanus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coriolanus/32/18769_2.png) [@Coriolanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coriolanus)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2024, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/82 "2024-01-29T01:32:42Z")
Where would all of Gandalf’s knowledge of Dragons consuming the Dwarven rings had come from? When he was talking to Frodo it seemed like he was the first person to have read Isiildur’s journals in 3000 years. And he kinda knew that Thrain had one of the the last extant rings yet didn’t know what happened to it. Ancalagon The Black was kind of defeated by Earendil yet he had **Manwe** and a host of Eagles at his back. Morgoth and the dragons (excepting at least one and maybe a Balrog or two) hadn’t a chance in the world against this host by this point. I’m being a little unfair between the Gandalf of The Hobbit (would have been nice to send some word ahead to Thranduil) and LotR yet really, in the latter (at least the appendix) we knew he and the Istari had been in Middle Earth for at least 2000 years. Gandalf had been to Minas Tirith enough (at least in Denethor’s time) to have a library card to their scrolls. What useful things had any if the Istari (just going with the three known ones - the possibly evil blue wizards are interesting too) done? I’ll just assume that everyone in Middle Earth had some idea - be it _actual lore_ or _fairy tale_ - about that bright morning/evening star/ship. Most wouldn’t have a clue about Earendil and that Cirdan built Vingilot. Bilbo hadn’t even finished writing about his _own_ story when he meets Frodo in Rivendell. So Gandalf huffs and puffs to The Shire to speak Frodo for a “check out what I just read” and a lot of name-dropping about dragons consuming Rings of Power. And advise him to clear out of Bag-end, move to another part of The Shire yet really, expediently head East to - well I’ll meet you in Bree. Nothing about Nazgul or Farmer Maggot (he & his dogs scare one away) or Tom Bombadil (who knows Maggot well). ---
**Author:** ![N9IWP](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/n9iwp/32/3154_2.png) [@N9IWP](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/N9IWP)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2024, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/83 "2024-01-29T11:31:59Z")
What if was just ASSUMED dragons destroyed the Dwarven rings? When the 4th Age LOTR RPG was running I thought an interesting quest was to find a Dwarven ring. Not sure what powers, if any, it would have, but would still be of interest. This is all in my head, and not supported by any official text. Brian ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2024, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/84 "2024-01-29T13:33:24Z")
Suaruman likely told him the fate of the various rings, since that was his specialty. ---
**Author:** ![Coriolanus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coriolanus/32/18769_2.png) [@Coriolanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coriolanus)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2024, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/85 "2024-01-29T14:25:03Z")
I don’t recall anything about Saruman trying to find The One Ring or read anything Isildur wrote about it. Isildur was ambushed near the Gladden Fields and that’s right about where it was found 2500 years later by the unfortunate Deagol. Had it been washed downriver or into the Sea - well there are certainly ways to look for shiny gold rings in rivers. And of course it’s Gandalf who says something like “The Ring wanted to be found” by another keeper. Isildur apparently wasn’t corrupted enough (at least to join the Dark Side) so the Ring slipped offf and let him get shot by Orcs. The Ring certainly didn’t luck out for 2500 years or with Deagol or Smeagol. If The Ring had any will or choice of its own, it again didn’t luck out with Bilbo or Frodo who were incorruptible. Beorn, Thranduil, perhaps Smaug if dragons know how to wield Rings of Power rather than smoke them and/or their bearers - they all would have been good candidates for the Ring to go to. ETA: left out the Balrog and of course the obvious Aragorn. I really think you’d need a big standing army to take on Mordor and Sauron in any regard. Boromir would have been a good choice but he’d have been killed before he could really use it. And Saruman sent out a truly pathetic party to find hobbits and bring them back to Orthanc. Faramir would have been an excellent candidate as at least Minas Tirith still had something of an army and a fighting chance against Mordor if Faramir ruled The Nine as well. Saruman purchased Orthanc on the cheap as it had been abandoned for centuries and he knew it came with a Palantir. Yet if his pathetic little party brought The One back (despite many Orcs of Mordor and the Rohirrim) Sauron would have crushed MT, Rohan and Isengard inside a year and Saruman would have relinquished the One anyways. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2024, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/86 "2024-01-29T15:49:03Z")
I just assumed the Dwarves had kept track of who had the Rings and what happened to them. “Say, was Brumli Bushbeard in that party that went after the dragon?” “Yep, got et, and he had a Ring.” ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2024, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/87 "2024-01-30T01:45:16Z")
> [@Coriolanus](#): > > If The Ring had any will or choice of its own, it again didn’t luck out with Bilbo or Frodo who were incorruptible. Their virtue delayed it, but no one was incorruptible against the Ring’s power, correct? ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2024, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/88 "2024-01-30T01:47:49Z")
Frodo failed at the last in Mount Doom. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2024, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/89 "2024-01-30T02:18:46Z")
> [@Coriolanus](#): > > If The Ring had any will or choice of its own, it again didn’t luck out with Bilbo That was Gandalf’s point: that the Ring was meant to be found by Bilbo, and that would not have been the Ring’s choice ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2024, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/90 "2024-01-30T02:25:49Z")
“Rumor grew of a shadow in the East, whispers of a nameless fear, and the Ring of Power perceived its time had come. It abandoned Gollum, but then something happened that the Ring did not intend. It was picked up by the most unlikely creature imaginable: a hobbit, Bilbo Baggins, of the Shire.” - Galadrial, opening of Fellowship of the RIngs, ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2024, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/91 "2024-01-30T03:50:02Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Their virtue delayed it, but no one was incorruptible against the Ring’s power, correct? Tom Bombadil? ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2024, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/92 "2024-01-30T05:09:27Z")
> [@simster](#): > > It was picked up by the most unlikely creature imaginable: a hobbit, Bilbo Baggins, of the Shire. This quote ignores the fact that Gollum was a hobbit, too. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2024, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/93 "2024-01-30T05:17:55Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > So there you go, from Gandalf’s own lips, there were lesser rings that were made as byproducts when the Elves were trying to perfect the craft of ring-making, and preceded the twenty Rings of Power that became part of legend. And this- “There are many magic rings in this world, and none of them should be used lightly.” > [@Grestarian](#): > > I started playing D&D in the mid-1970’s when the rules of Eldritch Wizardry and Basic D&D were still pretty new. It was no secret that those fantasy role-playing games were heavily based on the Hobbit/LOTR cosmology and I found it striking that dungeon treasures often included magical [jewelry/accessory] of \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ but failed to include a ‘price of magic’ as one famous author (Jeremy Pournell, perhaps?) termed it. And magical invisibility was one of the relatively common items in any monster’s loot. > > Later, when we graduated to the First Edition Advanced D&D rule sets, it was interesting to see the lists of magical artifacts in the DM’s guide, but that still seemed too tame. There were & are true Artifacts, and they all have a heavy price. > [@robby](#): > > After all, what happens if a Ring-wraith is destroyed? Despite the wraith’s ring nominally being in Sauron’s “possession,” it clearly is not in his physical possession, since the wraiths wear the rings far from Sauron’s presence. Or do they? JRRT wasnt clear on this. Gollum said Sauron had rings on all nine fingers. And certainly once the Ringwraiths were made, that was it. > [@markn\_1](#): > > BTW, I’m not sure the Ringwraiths were actually wearing their rings. There are some statements that arguably suggest that Sauron had them in his possession. Galadriel tells Frodo, “You saw the Eye of him that holds the Seven and the Nine”. While she may have meant “holds” metaphorically, in _The Hunt for the Ring_ in _Unfinished Tales_, it says “They [the Ringwraiths] were by far the most powerful of his servants, and the most suitable for such a mission, since they were entirely enslaved to their Nine Rings, which he now himself held.” Yes. And Frodo saw a crown on the Ringwraiths head, but no rings. > [@Chronos](#): > > . And there are indications that Saruman had himself crafted a Ring, though where that one would fall on the hierarchy of Great vs. Lesser Rings is never specified He stated it implicitly. > [@dtilque](#): > > This quote ignores the fact that Gollum was a hobbit, too. Proto-hobbit. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2024, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/94 "2024-01-30T07:25:58Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Or, what was more likely: that Gollum had somehow acquired the One Ring, or that Sauron had more rings forged in secret? **Sauron** : First rule in Evil Overlording: Why build one _one_ when you can have two _ones_ at twice the price? Only, this _one_ can be kept secret. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2024, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/95 "2024-01-30T10:58:56Z")
I know it’s not canon, but in the computer game _Shadow of War_, one of the Nazgûl is revealed to be Isildur. Kind of poetic. I can see Sauron being petty enough to do it. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2024, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/96 "2024-01-30T12:17:34Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Tom Bombadil? Ooh! I forgot about him. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2024, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/97 "2024-01-30T12:41:59Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > > [@simster](#): > > > > It was picked up by the most unlikely creature imaginable: a hobbit, Bilbo Baggins, of the Shire. > > This quote ignores the fact that Gollum was a hobbit, too. No, I don’t think it does. The point Gandalf’s making is not that it was somehow unprecedented for a hobbit to find a Great Ring; Gandalf knows Gollum’s ancestry and history perfectly well by this time, IIRC. The point is that, given that Gollum had secreted this Great Ring in the depths of the Misty Mountains, the most unlikely creature to find it there (on the apparently unique occasion when Gollum had temporarily mislaid it) was this rustic home-loving little member of a distant rustic home-loving little race. ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2024, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/98 "2024-01-30T13:26:09Z")
I can’t see Isildur agreeing to that, yeah he made a bonehead mistake under the influence of the Ring and the grief of losing his father, but nazgulhood? nah. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2024, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/99 "2024-01-30T13:28:06Z")
According to the game’s story, he was (mostly) dead when the ring was put on his finger, and it inevitably corrupted him. The idea of Aragorn fighting him, however unknowingly, is fun, given Aragorn’s own doubts about the strength of Man. ---
**Author:** ![Frodo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frodo/32/302_2.png) [@Frodo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frodo)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2024, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/100 "2024-01-30T13:33:09Z")
It works for the game no doubt, but it irks me because Isildur’s character has been denigrated since the movie came out, to the point that many see him as a bad guy when he was just flawed, far less flawed than Boromir for example. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181.md?page=6)