# LOTR question {On Bilbo's Ring} **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** middle-earth\ **Created:** [January 16, 2024, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181 "2024-01-16T20:06:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2024, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/121 "2024-01-31T16:00:11Z")
Ah, thanks for the confirmation, simster! TBH I find that scene just a little silly in some respects, with Sauron swatting Elven warriors across the battlefield with his WiffleMace like he’s playing badminton. But it does have good atmospherics and very much sets the stage for the deadly power of the Ring. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2024, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/122 "2024-01-31T16:02:03Z")
I’ve never paid close attention-when someone’s wearing the Ring in the movies, do they generally put it on their middle finger? ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2024, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/123 "2024-01-31T16:08:46Z")
Movie Frodo always put it on his index finger. (Had to put the links in a quote box because Discourse). > [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0D7PVdTaPxA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0D7PVdTaPxA) > [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c24-0Amwyik](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c24-0Amwyik) > [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYFPxU9xGZI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYFPxU9xGZI) > [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FWR0frTBn8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FWR0frTBn8) ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2024, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/124 "2024-01-31T16:10:11Z")
Huh, I guess that explains why it’s always worn on the index finger in the games. Good attention to detail. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2024, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/125 "2024-01-31T16:21:02Z")
Right- I think the way it plays out - it really highlights the ‘power’ of the ring and that Sauron was tied to it. Having Isildur hack it off a ‘dead’ corpse doesn’t have quite the same impact. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2024, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/126 "2024-01-31T16:32:18Z")
So I wonder - book & movie Elrond were clearly pissed at Isildur. So maybe book Elrond intentionally made Isildur sound like a guy robbing a corpse instead of the hero who won the war? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2024, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/127 "2024-01-31T16:36:50Z")
It would certainly help Isilidur’s acting as if it were a trophy make more sense. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2024, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/128 "2024-01-31T19:46:14Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Ah, that we shall never know, I guess, since he never actually got his (nine-fingered) hands on it again. Nazgul teleportation? Direct long-distance mind control without a Palantir? Increased power and invulnerability for Orc warriors? Certainly, part of the leveling-up would include sabotaging the work of the Three Rings that are currently hidden from him, AFAICT from this remark during the Council of Elrond: > > > [@](#): > > > > “If he recovers it, then he will command them all again, wherever they be, even the Three, and all that has been wrought with them will be laid bare, and he will be stronger than ever.” […] > > > > “But all that has been wrought by those who wield the Three will turn to their undoing, and their minds and hearts will become revealed to Sauron, if he regains the One.” I’m back to my first question then. Why didn’t this parade of yet-to-be-demonstrated horribles get used when he actually had the Ring? I’m thinking the answer must be at least in part that he has become more powerful in the lengthy interim, that his possession of the Ring at the time of the LotR’s telling would be even more terrible. But if that’s the case, how did he gain that power without the Ring? I’m betting there’s an answer, implied if not explicit, in the legendarium. The hearts of the three could not be discerned when he had the Ring the first time, but now all bets are off—why, I’m wondering? tl,dr: We had a shot at defeating him when he first had the Ring, but it’s all over if he gets his hands on it now. Okay, why is it lights out now but not then? ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2024, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/129 "2024-01-31T19:59:40Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > why, I’m wondering? Because the instant Sauron put on the One, the elves with the Three detected him immediately and took off their rings. The rings have very limited power over a strong will unless they put it on. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2024, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/130 "2024-01-31T20:00:32Z")
because the time of the elves has ended, with many/all of them headed to the undying lands. I think it was assumed the dwarves were far to few and would not help. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2024, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/131 "2024-01-31T20:05:11Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Okay, why is it lights out now but not then? Because the strength of the Free Peoples has diminished with the millennia. There were fewer elves and much fewer of the strongest first generation elves. Mankind is also reduced in power and glory. Elendil, who led the armies of Arnor and Gondor in the War of the Last Alliance, was a true Numenorian. He was from the island of super-humans, as was Isildur his son. But centuries passes and the true Numenorian bloodlines were intermingled with the more mortal bloodlines of the humans already in Moddle-Earth, and Arnor fell, and Gondor was greatly diminished in power, barely able to defend its own borders. So the strength available to the good guys was completely inadequate, if Sauron recovered his full strength. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2024, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/132 "2024-01-31T20:09:18Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > If he was never setting evil foot outside of Barad-dur to physically participate, what power did possession of the Ring give him that he didn’t already have? The holders of the three elven rings would have to remove them. > [@Stratocaster](#): > > We had a shot at defeating him when he first had the Ring, but it’s all over if he gets his hands on it now. Okay, why is it lights out now but not then? It was the Last Alliance of Elves and Men. The current human and elvish armies were only a shadow of their strength back then. > [@gnoitall](#): > > Because the strength of the Free Peoples has diminished with the millennia. Exactly. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2024, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/133 "2024-01-31T20:15:34Z")
Got it, makes sense. Thanks to all! ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2024, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/134 "2024-01-31T20:23:01Z")
Fwiw, this is Elrond’s summation of the situation you ask about, from Chapter 6 of _The Fellowship of the Ring_: > Many Elves and many mighty Men, and many of their friends. had perished in that terrible war. Anárion was slain, and Isildur was slain; and Gil-galad and Elendil were no more. Never again shall there be any such league of Elves and Men; for Men multiply and the Firstborn decrease, and the two kindreds are estranged. And ever since that day the race of Númenor has decayed, and the span of their years has lessened. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2024, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/135 "2024-01-31T21:06:54Z")
Were the Nazgul at the battle where Sauron lost the ring? ---
**Author:** ![Coriolanus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coriolanus/32/18769_2.png) [@Coriolanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coriolanus)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2024, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/136 "2024-01-31T21:34:30Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > cuts the ring from Sauron’s hand > Sauron: “ow! my finger & precious!” Sauron with the ring on wasn’'t shooting laser beams. He was clearly a bad-ass when it came to melee fighting - and had just clobbered two of ME’s best fighters. Sure losing the ring mattered a lot, yet what happened to Sauron? He vanished into thin air? Glorfindel chased him away? Sure the Last Alliance was a victory for Good. The Barad-dur had to be destroyed and Cirdan, Elrond and Isildur had their words on Orodruin… Halfway into the Third Age, Witch King is back destroying kingdoms, Taking Minas Ithil and redecorating it to Minas Morgul and killing Kings. And somewhere late in the TA (not sure when/how long exactly) the Necromancer is doing something evil in Dol Guldur. Let’s chase him away! And that turns out to be Sauron who returns to a brand-new silently-rebuild Barad Dur. Now might be a good time to try and dispatch of him too as within 60 years he has his own army and allies to conquer the world even without the Ring (though it’d be nice to have it back). For good (or likely very bad) the only thing to do with The One is take it to Mordor/Orodruin and destroy it (good luck with that crazy venture) or use it against him as Boromir suggests. Gondor has a standing army that would have a good chance on a military defeat of Mordor. Galadriel doesn’t yet let’s say she could figure out someway to be Dark Lord if she really wanted to. Okay, Strider/Aragorn is the Hero and as he said in Bree he could easily have it if he wanted to. And lastly Faramir had the chance to take it. It’s not clear if a strong wielder of The One would control the Nine whether or not their in Sauron’s possession. Yet unlikely they’d do Sauron’s bidding and I reckon Elrond, Galadriel and even Gandalf could no longer use their rings. And yeah, as is said more than once the new wielder would just replace Sauron (perhaps even control him?) and that would be bad. The overall point is at the end of the TA Sauron’s own army backed by the Easterlings and Haradrim was going to take on and defeat Middle Earth anyway. He nearly did - though perhaps because Aragorn certainly tricked Sauron into thinking Gondor and Ring shooting laser beams was somehow going to crush Mordor. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2024, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/137 "2024-01-31T21:42:57Z")
They were just wraithing away in mordorville. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2024, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/138 "2024-01-31T21:47:30Z")
lookin for their lost shaker of salt? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2024, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/139 "2024-01-31T21:52:40Z")
Looking for their next kingdom to assault. something, something flip flop - had to float back home… How they got there, I haven’t a clue. Some people say there’s a ring to blame, but they know its their own damn fault. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2024, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181/140 "2024-01-31T22:51:48Z")
They were just wraithing away in mordorville… Looking for their next kingdom to assault. Lost a fight on weathertop, slipped on some river rock, had to float on back home… … … How I got here, I haven’t a clue. Some people say there’s a ring to blame, but I know its my own damn fault. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-on-bilbos-ring/996181.md?page=8)