# LOTR question: the Orc who speared Frodo in Moria **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 14, 2004, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-the-orc-who-speared-frodo-in-moria/274749 "2004-11-14T19:36:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Moirai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/96bed5/32.png) [@Moirai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moirai)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-the-orc-who-speared-frodo-in-moria/274749/21 "2004-11-15T04:30:39Z")
**QtM** , I bow to your wisdom, as usual. But I have a question about the movie version. In the film, doesn’t Baromir peek out the door and then in exasperation say “They’ve got a cave troll”? That _was_ Moria, wasn’t it? Or did I spend way too may brain cells playing games with my kids today? ---
**Author:** ![Cerowyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/82dd89/32.png) [@Cerowyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cerowyn)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-the-orc-who-speared-frodo-in-moria/274749/22 "2004-11-15T05:43:09Z")
> [@EJsGirl](#): > > That _was_ Moria, wasn’t it? Yes, that was Moria, or rather _Khazad Dum_\*, as styled by the Dwarves. - Tolkein actually made an error in the book, which PJ replicated. The inscription on the Gate (with the riddle written in moon-runes) refers to “Moria,” which means Black Pit. That name was given to Khazad Dum after the Dwarves were driven from the place, and would not have appeared on the Gate. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-the-orc-who-speared-frodo-in-moria/274749/23 "2004-11-15T12:10:15Z")
> [@EJsGirl](#): > > **QtM** , I bow to your wisdom, as usual. But I have a question about the movie version. > > In the film, doesn’t Baromir peek out the door and then in exasperation say “They’ve got a cave troll”? That _was_ Moria, wasn’t it? Or did I spend way too may brain cells playing games with my kids today? Yes, in the movie Boromir peers around the door, recoils as two arrows thud close to his face and says (with a wonderful touch of dry emotion) ‘They have a cave troll’. In the book, Gandalf looks out, many arrows whistle down the corridor and he sees something large ‘… perhaps a cave troll’. ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-the-orc-who-speared-frodo-in-moria/274749/24 "2004-11-15T14:27:58Z")
I consider myself a Tolkien geek , but only from reading the Trilogy over and over and over all my life. I know I’ll regret asking this but who is “Trotter” ? is that an early version of “Strider” ? ---
**Author:** ![Humble\_Servant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/47e85d/32.png) [@Humble\_Servant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Humble_Servant)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-the-orc-who-speared-frodo-in-moria/274749/25 "2004-11-15T15:00:03Z")
> [@BMalion](#): > > I know I’ll regret asking this but who is “Trotter” ? is that an early version of “Strider” ? Yes. I’ll let someone else give more details, but Aragorn son of Arathorn was originally a hobbit named Strider who wore wooden shoes. It is so jarring to read it that it seems more like Bored of the Rings than the real thing. Here’s how I always read the Cave Troll in Moria scene: Cave trolls are big stupid babies. They barely feel clubs to the head and they deflect ordinary swords. So, they don’t know what pain is. Let them feel a sting from a real blade, though, and suddenly all their tiny brains can focus on is the pain. I think that troll ran away to hide in a corner, blubber and suck its paw. (Trolls who are restrained by leashes/chains, etc. may be forced to continue to work even when injured, but this one probably wasn’t.) IMHO, YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![Humble\_Servant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/47e85d/32.png) [@Humble\_Servant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Humble_Servant)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-the-orc-who-speared-frodo-in-moria/274749/26 "2004-11-15T15:03:08Z")
> [@Humble Servant](#): > > Aragorn son of Arathorn was originally a hobbit named **Strider** who wore wooden shoes See? It’s so wrong I can’t even type it. That should be **Trotter**. ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-the-orc-who-speared-frodo-in-moria/274749/27 "2004-11-15T15:21:19Z")
Just have to add, relating to the original question: This is one of those times where the changes in the movie worked well, I think. Sean Bean’s line was so memorable; and having the guys fight a big troll rather than just orcs and goblins upped the ante nicely. (Although movie Frodo doesn’t get much of a chance to show his bravery - by stabbing the whatever it was - as he does in the book. ) ---
**Author:** ![Rufus\_Xavier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eada6e/32.png) [@Rufus\_Xavier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rufus_Xavier)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-the-orc-who-speared-frodo-in-moria/274749/28 "2004-11-15T16:03:01Z")
> [@well he's back](#): > > J (Although movie Frodo doesn’t get much of a chance to show his bravery - by stabbing the whatever it was - as he does in the book. ) /Disagree. In the movie, Frodo is prone in a corner and the troll grabs his foot and pulls him. As Frodo reaches the end of the ledge, he slashes at the troll’s wrist with Sting, and the troll drops him. That gives Aragorn enough time to get between Frodo and the troll and prevent it from smashing Frodo with the giant hammer. ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-the-orc-who-speared-frodo-in-moria/274749/29 "2004-11-15T17:34:59Z")
Good point Rufus Xavier - I haven’t been able to rewatch the films for quite some time (for me a couple months without these movies is a long time), so I’m sure your memory is correct. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-the-orc-who-speared-frodo-in-moria/274749/30 "2004-11-15T19:29:30Z")
> [@well he's back](#): > > Answer : in the book someone - Gandalf, I think - comments on how The Watcher in the Water (the monster outside the gate to Moria) went straight for Frodo. That’s it! From “A Journey in the Dark”, after they get away from the Watcher: > [@](#): > > ‘I felt that something horrible was near from the moment that my foot first touched the water,’ said Frodo. "What was the thing, or were there many of them?’ > > ‘I do not know,’ answered Gandalf; ‘but the arms were all guided by one purpose. Something has crept, or has been driven out of dark waters under the mountains. There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.’ He did not speak aloud his thought that whatever it was that dwelt in the lake, it had seized on Frodo first among all the Company. Thanks. I knew the Wise would know the answer. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-the-orc-who-speared-frodo-in-moria/274749/31 "2004-11-15T20:43:11Z")
> [@](#): > > Yes. I’ll let someone else give more details, but Aragorn son of Arathorn was originally a hobbit named Strider [sic] who wore wooden shoes. It is so jarring to read it that it seems more like Bored of the Rings than the real thing. I think that the folks behind D&D joked about this in the 3.0 player’s handbook. In the section describing the classes, and which races tend towards which classes, they comment “Halfling rangers are legendary. As in, you might hear of them, but you’ll never meet one.” ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-the-orc-who-speared-frodo-in-moria/274749/32 "2004-11-15T20:51:55Z")
> [@Humble Servant](#): > > Yes. I’ll let someone else give more details, but Aragorn son of Arathorn was originally a hobbit named Strider who wore wooden shoes. It is so jarring to read it that it seems more like Bored of the Rings than the real thing. Not as jarring as Frodo originally being called Bingo. ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-the-orc-who-speared-frodo-in-moria/274749/33 "2004-11-15T21:33:13Z")
> [@Humble Servant](#): > > Yes. I’ll let someone else give more details, but Aragorn son of Arathorn was originally a hobbit named Strider who wore wooden shoes. It is so jarring to read it that it seems more like Bored of the Rings than the real thing. Wooden shoes!?! What, was he a clogger? Man, this is why I never watch the behind-the-scenes-making-of stuff on DVD’s. When you see the tortured path towards a great piece of work, it kind of spoils it, at least, for me. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2004, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-the-orc-who-speared-frodo-in-moria/274749/34 "2004-11-15T23:28:41Z")
> [@BMalion](#): > > Wooden shoes!?! > > What, was he a clogger? > > Man, this is why I never watch the behind-the-scenes-making-of stuff on DVD’s. When you see the tortured path towards a great piece of work, it kind of spoils it, at least, for me. It took Tolkien about 14 years to write the book. (Obviously well worth it!) He wasn’t an orthodox writer (no planning the whole outline, putting in climatic scenes when ‘appropriate’ etc). He simply started writing a follow-up to ‘The Hobbit’ as another children’s book, then it turned into a more adult novel. So you would expect the various drafts to happen - the man was also a perfectionist. Many may well not enjoy reliving Tolkien’s struggle to find the best version. However… …I have derived enormous pleasure from the film DVD’s, with commentaries by cast / technical crew / writers / producers, plus plenty of other material. Peter Jackson is also passionate about the world of Middle Earth, but he was up against a strict deadline + budget. So he involved all sorts of fellow enthusiasts to help him. One of my favourite moments is when Jackson went to look at a possible location for Hobbiton. He brought along Alan Lee and John Howe, two talented artists who are really inspired by Tolkien’s work. And you know that the film has found its location when you see these two artists simply sit down and start drawing hobbit holes using the landscape as background. This was a happy collaboration - do look at these commentaries! ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-the-orc-who-speared-frodo-in-moria/274749/35 "2004-11-16T00:46:54Z")
> [@glee](#): > > Many may well not enjoy reliving Tolkien’s struggle to find the best version. Have you read “Leaf by Niggle” by JRRT? He recognized his own obsession, and documented it rather nicely! Trotter began as a hobbit, with wooden feet, because he’d been captured by Sauron and his feet cruelly maimed. He morphed into a peredhil very, very briefly, then into a man, then into a Tarkil, which was early Quenya for Dunadan. He remained Trotter the heir of Elendil for quite some time before getting Striderized. And he was originally Aragorn son of Celegorn. Along with nearly half a dozen other names before JRRT found the right one. One plot draft had him duking it out with Boromir, prince of Ond, to claim the kinship. And don’t get me started on the Evil Treebeard, who imprisons Frodo for trespassing in his garden! ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-the-orc-who-speared-frodo-in-moria/274749/36 "2004-11-16T01:13:35Z")
“peredhil” - whazzat? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-the-orc-who-speared-frodo-in-moria/274749/37 "2004-11-16T01:21:47Z")
> [@Qadgop the Mercotan](#): > > JRRT went thru hobbit companion characters like Hef went thru playmates, it seems. Guh. Guh. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-the-orc-who-speared-frodo-in-moria/274749/38 "2004-11-16T02:29:23Z")
> [@Northern Piper](#): > > “peredhil” - whazzat? 😕 The Half-elven. Like Earendil, Elwing, their kids Elros and Elrond, and Elrond’s kids. They all got the option to choose whether to be elven or mortal. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-the-orc-who-speared-frodo-in-moria/274749/39 "2004-11-16T06:34:48Z")
But isn’t Strider Half-Elven, being directly descended from Elros? Or does it no longer count, once they opt for human? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2004, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-the-orc-who-speared-frodo-in-moria/274749/40 "2004-11-16T07:01:44Z")
> [@Qadgop the Mercotan](#): > > The Half-elven. Like Earendil, Elwing, their kids Elros and Elrond, and Elrond’s kids. They all got the option to choose whether to be elven or mortal. Kinda what **Northern Piper** said. Elros, as I recall, chose humanity. It was not my understanding that his offspring were afforded a choice. I suppose it’s too much to hope for, that the answer to this will be straightforward, and unencumbered by forty-'leven nuances of the choices the sons of Elros were given as the final book took shape. I’ve only read _The Hobbit_ and _LOTR_ (countless times), and _The Silmarillion_ (once, thirty years ago), so please be gentle. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-the-orc-who-speared-frodo-in-moria/274749.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-the-orc-who-speared-frodo-in-moria/274749.md?page=3)