# LOTR question: The Rohirrim **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 18, 2013, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-the-rohirrim/650702 "2013-02-18T15:17:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-the-rohirrim/650702/21 "2013-02-18T21:04:36Z")
> [@Balance](#): > > Only in the sense that people who already happened to be on hand were invited to the meeting. No one was summoned to Rivendell by Elrond for the purpose of meeting to discuss the Ring. You could possibly argue that Frodo was “summoned” via Aragorn, but the purpose of that was to get the Ring into the best shelter they could manage, not to attend a meeting. > > Attendees at the Council of Elrond: > [ul] > [li]Legolas–He was looking for Aragorn and or Gandalf to tell them about Gollum’s escape[/li][/ul] Man, I hated that guy… always muttering about his damn ring… > [@](#): > > [ul] > [li]Frodo–Fled to Rivendell for shelter and healing.[/li][li]Sam–He was there to kill anyone who tried anything with Frodo.[/li][/ul] You forgot… [ul] [li]Merry–Was not invited[/li][li]Pippin–Was not invited[/li][/ul] > [@Stormcrow](#): > > This is my take on it as well. Also, if anyone represented Rohan at the Council it would have been Boromir - Rohan was a vassal state (or at least long-standing subordinate ally) of Gondor. Well, where was Gondor when… oh, never mind. ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-the-rohirrim/650702/22 "2013-02-18T23:38:21Z")
Elrond himself said the attendees of the meeting came together “by chance, it seems.” The permanent members of the council, I assume, are Elrond, Erestor, Gandalf, and Aragorn. ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2013, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-the-rohirrim/650702/23 "2013-02-18T23:49:27Z")
> [@Ethilrist](#): > > You forgot… > [ul] > [li]Merry–Was not invited[/li][li]Pippin–Was not invited[/li][/ul] My list consists of those who attended the Council. Movie scene-compression notwithstanding, Merry and Pippin did not. In fact, Pippin was rather incensed that Sam was being “rewarded” for sneaking in. > [@](#): > > Later that day the hobbits held a meeting of their own in Bilbo’s room. Merry and Pippin were > indignant when they heard that Sam had crept into the Council, and had been chosen as Frodo’s > companion. > `It's most unfair,' said Pippin. `Instead of throwing him out, and clapping him in chains, Elrond > goes and rewards him for his cheek!’ ---
**Author:** ![Reno\_Nevada](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Reno\_Nevada](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reno_Nevada)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-the-rohirrim/650702/24 "2013-02-19T16:53:11Z")
> [@the\_diego](#): > > Elrond himself said the attendees of the meeting came together “by chance, it seems.” The permanent members of the council, I assume, are Elrond, Erestor, Gandalf, and Aragorn. Actually, there seems to be a “White Council” that includes Elrond, Gandalf, Saruman, Galadriel, and probably Radagast and Cirdan. One of the things Gandalf was doing was telling Elrond not to renew Saruman’s invitation. Elrond would not consider some 80-year-old great-to-the-nth nephew as a “permanent” member. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-the-rohirrim/650702/25 "2013-02-19T17:05:51Z")
Here’s Wiki on the White Council; I agree that Aragorn was not a member - nor, indeed, was any Man (by the Middle-earth definition): [Gandalf - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Council) ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-the-rohirrim/650702/26 "2013-02-19T22:46:22Z")
> [@Apocalypso](#): > > Why wasn’t any representative of Rohan present at the Council of Elrond? Despite the way things are presented in the movies, Elrond did not summon anyone to council except for persons already present in his household. Remember, LotR takes place in a quasi-medieval society. There was no way to send detailed messages other than by ship, horseback, and shank’s mare. It took Boromir literally months–it might have been a year, I haven’t my books at hand–to travel from Minas Tirith to Imladris (i.e., Rivendell). A trip to and from Rohan wouldn’t have taken as long, but it would still have been a stretch. The persons present at Elrond’s council had all come to Imladris for their own reasons. The fact that they were present at the same time was is best explained by Providence. One of the things that annoyed me about the extended versions of the films (all inferior to the theatrical version, in my opinion) was the scene in which Denethor goes to one of his sons and says that he’s gotten a message from Elrond summoning everyone to council. I thought, “Really? Did he send an email, or are the elves still using fax machines?” ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-the-rohirrim/650702/27 "2013-02-19T23:42:45Z")
> [@Sauron](#): > > You’ll have to forgive me. Several traumatic experiences occurred after the Council, and as a result my memory isn’t what it once was. > > As for the horseman sent to Dain, I was just trying to return the waistcoat buttons Bilbo lost when he left Moria. They were nice buttons, and I thought he’d want them back. Maybe even set up a trade of sorts – if he had something he’d picked up on his journeys he shouldn’t have, why then, I’d be happy to take it off his hands in exchange for the buttons. Sort of a finder’s fee. Moria, you say? Seems Bilbo economised with the truth even more than we thought. That scurrilous little book of his never put him within a hundred miles of Moria. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-the-rohirrim/650702/28 "2013-02-19T23:55:02Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Moria, you say? Seems Bilbo economised with the truth even more than we thought. That scurrilous little book of his \ I’m going to need you you to take that back. Freely and of your own will, of course. Don’t be afraid of that guy with the shotgun, he’s around your place on other business. ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-the-rohirrim/650702/29 "2013-02-20T00:01:42Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Despite the way things are presented in the movies, Elrond did not summon anyone to council except for persons already present in his household. Remember, LotR takes place in a quasi-medieval society. There was no way to send detailed messages other than by ship, horseback, and shank’s mare. Oh, good, you’re here. This bee-launcher was getting heavy. Now, to be scrupulously fair, Elrond could conceivably have had access to more rapid means of communication than were available to ordinary folks in Middle Earth. The Eagles, for instance, could have carried messages…if he could contact them, and they were willing to do so (neither of which is a given). A summons could probably be justified, if you really wanted to, though it would have been a very big (and noticeable) deal. A more telling point, I think, is that the elven roster doesn’t particularly make sense if Elrond called people to Rivendell specifically for the Council. Why would he have summoned representatives from the Grey Havens and Mirkwood, but not Lorien? Surely Galadriel should have had a representative there, if the Council were planned so far in advance. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-the-rohirrim/650702/30 "2013-02-20T00:18:13Z")
> [@Balance](#): > > Oh, good, you’re here. This bee-launcher was getting heavy. You were supposed to be issued the mounted version; the hand-held version is issued only to Ents. Please contact the armory and ask for the correct model; use my name, and feel free to threaten murder. > [@](#): > > Now, to be scrupulously fair, Elrond could conceivably have had access to more rapid means of communication than were available to ordinary folks in Middle Earth. The Eagles, for instance, could have carried messages…if he could contact them, and they were willing to do so (neither of which is a given). A summons could probably be justified, if you really wanted to, though it would have been a very big (and noticeable) deal. Gwaihir is not running a messenger service. Even if he were, it’s ridiculous to imagine that he and say, Landroval and that third Eagle whose name I can never remember would have flown from Imladris to Minas Tirith, Meduseld, and the Lonely Mountain, delivered a summons to council, and then not carried people back. In for a penny, in for a pound! The extended edition thing of a summons to council is an example of presentism. It’s Jackson either failing to come out of the modern mindset in his screenwriting, or thinking that the viewer would not be able to do so (i.e., not giving the viewers enough credit.) I love both Tower theatrical version, but the presence of the scene I alluded to above in the EE is part of why that version sucks eggs. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-the-rohirrim/650702/31 "2013-02-20T00:29:07Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > The movie version made it sound like it was a planned event, with all races being invited. > > > [@Elrond](#): > > > > Strangers from distant lands, friends of old, you’ve been summoned here to answer the threat of Morrrdorrr. I retconned that as Elrond merely “summoning” them to attend the council itself since they happened to be at Rivendell, rather than inviting them to Rivendell in the first place specifically for the purpose of attending a council. > [@muldoonthief](#): > > And in the extended version of Two Towers, Denethor tells Boromir that Elrond has called a meeting, and he wants Boromir to attend, and get the Ring for him. Oh. Well, there goes that idea. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-the-rohirrim/650702/32 "2013-02-20T00:36:54Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I retconned that as Elrond merely “summoning” them to attend the council itself since they happened to be at Rivendell, rather than inviting them to Rivendell in the first place specifically for the purpose of attending a council. Nitpick: you mean “fanwanked” here, not retconned. ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-the-rohirrim/650702/33 "2013-02-20T00:38:53Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Gwaihir is not running a messenger service. Even if he were, it’s ridiculous to imagine that he and say, Landroval and that third Eagle whose name I can never remember would have flown from Imladris to Minas Tirith, Meduseld, and the Lonely Mountain, delivered a summons to council, and then not carried people back. In for a penny, in for a pound! > > The extended edition thing of a summons to council is an example of presentism. It’s Jackson either failing to come out of the modern mindset in his screenwriting, or thinking that the viewer would not be able to do so (i.e., not giving the viewers enough credit.) I love both Tower theatrical version, but the presence of the scene I alluded to above in the EE is part of why that version sucks eggs. I don’t disagree, by any means. My point was simply that there were factors in play that would not have been present in a truly medieval setting, and could have been used to justify a summons. They manifestly weren’t, of course, but we already knew that. Oh, and I think the Eagles would have had trouble ferrying people long distances, even if they had been willing to stoop to such a task. Gwaihir told Gandalf that he couldn’t carry him very far, and dropped him off at Edoras, which was…what, a few days away by horse? The only people Eagles carry any substantial distance are a couple of starved hobbits and a recently reborn wizard who was noted to be “light as a feather”. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-the-rohirrim/650702/34 "2013-02-20T00:43:27Z")
> [@Skald](#): > > Nitpick: you mean “fanwanked” here, not retconned. Huh. Before having to go and look up the difference just now, I don’t think I ever quite realized that fanwanking and retconning are not quite synonymous in that a retcon is an _official_ reinterpretation for the sake of consistency performed by someone who’s actually creating a received version of the material, such as a writer or producer. Thanks, **Skald**. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-the-rohirrim/650702/35 "2013-02-20T00:46:01Z")
> [@Balance](#): > > I don’t disagree, by any means. My point was simply that there were factors in play that would not have been present in a truly medieval setting, and could have been used to justify a summons. They manifestly weren’t, of course, but we already knew that. > > Oh, and I think the Eagles would have had trouble ferrying people long distances, even if they had been willing to stoop to such a task. Gwaihir told Gandalf that he couldn’t carry him very far, and dropped him off at Edoras, which was…what, a few days away by horse? The only people Eagles carry any substantial distance are a couple of starved hobbits and a recently reborn wizard who was noted to be “light as a feather”. Take your facts back to Wales they belong, you hoser. 😃 I agree that the Eagles would have been very unlikely to carry Boromir, Eomer, etc. any great distance except in the most dire of circumstances. I just can’t buy that Elrond had any quick methods of communication routinely available, especially given the brevity between his becoming aware that the One Ring had been found and the timing of his Council. If nothing else, to use the Eagles as such a messenger service would require sending someone to find them in the first place It’s not like they were nesting at Imladris. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-the-rohirrim/650702/36 "2013-02-20T00:47:05Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Huh. Before having to go and look up the difference just now, I don’t think I ever quite realized that fanwanking and retconning are not quite synonymous in that a retcon is an _official_ reinterpretation for the sake of consistency performed by someone who’s actually creating a received version of the material, such as a writer or producer. Thanks, **Skald**. You’re welcome, and I have had the minions remove the customary gratuity from your home, along with anything in the fridge that struck their fancy. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-the-rohirrim/650702/37 "2013-02-20T01:05:48Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > You’re welcome, and I have had the minions remove the customary gratuity from your home, along with anything in the fridge that struck their fancy. :eek: Oops. Um, your minions aren’t required to report to the authorities anything that might be… of interest, are they? If not, then no problem! Have an extra gratuity! ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-the-rohirrim/650702/38 "2013-02-20T01:20:34Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > :eek: Oops. Um, your minions aren’t required to report to the authorities anything that might be… of interest, are they? > > If not, then no problem! Have an extra gratuity! Silver bullets. This forum requires that you wait 60 seconds between posts. Please try again in 2 seconds. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-the-rohirrim/650702/39 "2013-02-20T07:18:52Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I’m going to need you you to take that back. Freely and of your own will, of course. Don’t be afraid of that guy with the shotgun, he’s around your place on other business. Pure irony. Bilbo and the dwarves never went near Moria and **Sauron** knows it, so I suggest for comedic effect that the discrepancy must be attributed to Bilbo’s mendacity rather than to the Dark Lord’s. It would never occur to me to fear a man with a shotgun; even if any _hnau_ were bent enough to harbour ill intent towards me, you know well that Maleldil has not granted the necessary power to them or to you. But so long as he does not menace those whom I cherish, I see no need to cause his body to adopt different movements. ---
**Author:** ![Dervorin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Dervorin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dervorin)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2013, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-the-rohirrim/650702/40 "2013-02-20T12:13:27Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Gwaihir is not running a messenger service. Even if he were, it’s ridiculous to imagine that he and say, Landroval and that third Eagle whose name I can never remember You’re thinking of Melendor (the Swift, in case you were wondering) - and the only reason I know this is that I name all my computers after LotR characters, and my current laptop is called Meneldor. > [@Balance](#): > > Oh, and I think the Eagles would have had trouble ferrying people long distances, even if they had been willing to stoop to such a task. Gwaihir told Gandalf that he couldn’t carry him very far, and dropped him off at Edoras, which was…what, a few days away by horse? The only people Eagles carry any substantial distance are a couple of starved hobbits and a recently reborn wizard who was noted to be “light as a feather”. However, in The Hobbit, they lugged all the Dwarves (including the distinctly un-featherweight Bombur) all the way from the Misty Mountains to the Carrock, so clearly they are capable of some long-distance haulage when required. I don’t think they would have trouble ferrying men around, even those of such advanced muscular development as Aragorn or Boromir. Perhaps not for weeks on end, but I think an eagle with a 75-foot wingspan wouldn’t have much trouble carting around a man. Alternatively, of course, they could always grip it by the husk. Or just use a standard creeper, held under the dorsal guiding feathers. Simple! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-the-rohirrim/650702.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-the-rohirrim/650702.md?page=3)