# LOTR question - Who Knew about Frodo's 'failure'? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 28, 2014, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-who-knew-about-frodos-failure/689460 "2014-05-28T13:55:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2014, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-who-knew-about-frodos-failure/689460/1 "2014-05-28T13:55:19Z")
So, who do you think knew about Frodo’s choice at the Cracks of Doom? Just Sam? Sam and Gandalf? or everybody? They must have wondered how he lost his ring finger. Would Frodo’s own feelings of failure (however wrong he might be) and his PTSD be worse if he kept his actions a secret or if they were widely known? ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2014, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-who-knew-about-frodos-failure/689460/2 "2014-05-28T14:07:19Z")
Frodo, Sam and Gandalf though I would hazard a guess that Elrond and Galadriel would understand and know as well. Part of Frodo’s melancholy and sympathy to Saruman and his thugs would suggest he empathized with their personal moral failures based on his perception of how he had failed to resist the temptation to rule others. ---
**Author:** ![Stormcrow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/0ea827/32.png) [@Stormcrow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stormcrow)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2014, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-who-knew-about-frodos-failure/689460/3 "2014-05-28T14:07:31Z")
Ultimately - everyone close to him, I would imagine. Keep in mind that one of the conceits of the Lord of the Rings is that Frodo was writing down his experiences as a continuation of the book that Bilbo started, and Sam finished it up afterwards. Frodo seemed to me to be the type who would write the whole thing, warts and all. Sam might have been inclined to whitewash Frodo’s failings a little, but when it comes down to it, anyone who read the book would probably know how things truly played out. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2014, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-who-knew-about-frodos-failure/689460/4 "2014-05-28T14:08:48Z")
At first, I was gonna say “whatever happens in Mordor, stays in Mordor,” but then there is that book… ---
**Author:** ![Dendarii\_Dame](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbce88/32.png) [@Dendarii\_Dame](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dendarii_Dame)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2014, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-who-knew-about-frodos-failure/689460/5 "2014-05-28T14:19:19Z")
I suspect the rest of the Fellowship figured it out PDQ, and Faramir, too. I bet nobody brought it up, though. ---
**Author:** ![Weedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weedy/32/301_2.png) [@Weedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weedy)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2014, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-who-knew-about-frodos-failure/689460/6 "2014-05-28T21:56:23Z")
Near the end of the book, a minstrel sings the song of “Frodo of the Nine Fingers”. So I think everyone knew. It wasn’t really a moral failing - the Ring was impossible to resist. That’s part of the point of the story so there is no need to hide it. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2014, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-who-knew-about-frodos-failure/689460/7 "2014-05-28T22:10:29Z")
What Weedy said. The Ring had an intelligence of its own, and had been working on Frodo for a while. In fact, I would not say Frodo failed. He carried the damned thing practically all the way to Mount Doom; that’s the hard part. His moment of weakness was the Ring’s last gasp, last hope for survival, and Frodo, by bringing Sam and Sméagol along, was actually prepared for that. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2014, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-who-knew-about-frodos-failure/689460/8 "2014-05-28T23:16:29Z")
> [@well\_he\_s\_back](#): > > They must have wondered how he lost his ring finger. Which finger was it on when Gollum did that thing he does? I seem to recall that Sauron wore it on his index finger, but if Frodo lost that one, it would have been difficult to write the book. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2014, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-who-knew-about-frodos-failure/689460/9 "2014-05-28T23:38:16Z")
If he had not failed, if he had not been tempted, then the question would have remained for all time: Why did they need to destroy the ring? Because after all, if a simple hobbit carried it all the way to Mount Doom and tossed it in without issue, just how dangerous was it really? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-who-knew-about-frodos-failure/689460/10 "2014-05-29T00:00:57Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > Which finger was it on when Gollum did that thing he does? I seem to recall that Sauron wore it on his index finger, but if Frodo lost that one, it would have been difficult to write the book. Heh! I just grabbed a pencil in my hand, without using my index finger, and scribbled away quite freely. Really, nothing to it! ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-who-knew-about-frodos-failure/689460/11 "2014-05-29T00:13:00Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Heh! I just grabbed a pencil in my hand, without using my index finger, and scribbled away quite freely. Really, nothing to it! Also, there’s nothing in the books AFAICT to indicate that Frodo wore the Ring on his dominant hand. Or whether he was right- or left-handed. Or even whether hobbits HAVE right- vs. left-handedness, come to think of it. Actually, now I want ambidextrousness to be a characteristic hobbit trait. Fors/againsts? ---
**Author:** ![plankter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ba0ec/32.png) [@plankter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/plankter)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-who-knew-about-frodos-failure/689460/12 "2014-05-29T02:30:39Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > If he had not failed, if he had not been tempted, then the question would have remained for all time: Why did they need to destroy the ring? Because after all, if a simple hobbit carried it all the way to Mount Doom and tossed it in without issue, just how dangerous was it really? That… is an excellent question. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-who-knew-about-frodos-failure/689460/13 "2014-05-29T02:52:03Z")
Another question is, how smart was the plan? Afterwards, Gandalf seems to think it was a really foolish thing to do. I think, given the nature of the book, destroying the ring is kind of a cheat. If the free people of the world can’t be bothered to band together to defeat evil (as they did in the past) maybe they don’t deserve that freedom. Just throwing stuff at the wall. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-who-knew-about-frodos-failure/689460/14 "2014-05-29T03:13:44Z")
Not really a fair comparison. The last time around, both the Elves and the Men were at the height of their powers. The Elves were the A-list in terms of fighting capacity, and the Numenoreans were strong, with two separate powerful kingdoms. By the time of the War of the Ring, the Elves had been in decline for a couple of millennia, gradually withdrawing from Middle-earth and crossing the sea. The ones who were left were still powerfully individually, but there weren’t many of them. The Men were similarly weakened. Arnor was long-gone, as were the three successor kingdoms. Gondor was badly weakened. Even Aragorn, the heir of Islidur, was arguably weaker than his ancestors, though impressive for his time. Sauron, even without the Ring, was at full strength. He was the odds-on favourite in the War. The western alliance was almost foolhardy in opposing him, but they were doing the best they could with their much weaker forces. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-who-knew-about-frodos-failure/689460/15 "2014-05-29T03:32:18Z")
> [@Dale\_Sams](#): > > Another question is, how smart was the plan? > > Afterwards, Gandalf seems to think it was a really foolish thing to do. . . . It’s incredibly foolish! Take the weapon right into the homeland of the enemy? Why not base the Manhattan Project in Kyoto! They’ll never notice it there! Frodo’s idea of tossing it into the ocean made more sense. Okay, yeah, it’ll come back. But we’ll have bought a few centuries of peace. That’s also a bad plan…but it’s less bad! (And, hey, one of the Silmarils was thrown into the sea and lost forever. The ring might not find its way back!) Or… Take it and follow the Blue Wizards to the far East. Make five hundred exact copies and mail them to all your friends. Have the Dwarves cast it inside a million-ton block of iron. Have Gandalf build a giant three-stage fireworks rocket and fire it into orbit, right next to Earendil in the sky. The joy of the story, as it is written, is that the future depended upon so sharp a knife-edge of absolute desperation. There isn’t any really comparable event in real-world history. (The battle of Salamis might come close: the entire course of European history was in the balance.) ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-who-knew-about-frodos-failure/689460/16 "2014-05-29T06:09:10Z")
> [@Dendarii\_Dame](#): > > I suspect the rest of the Fellowship figured it out PDQ, and Faramir, too. I bet nobody brought it up, though. > [@Weedy](#): > > Near the end of the book, a minstrel sings the song of “Frodo of the Nine Fingers”. So I think everyone knew. It wasn’t really a moral failing - the Ring was impossible to resist. That’s part of the point of the story so there is no need to hide it. Tolkien’s letter 246 says this: > [@](#): > > Frodo undertook his quest out of love – to save the world he knew from disaster at his own expense, if he could; and also in complete humility, acknowledging that he was wholly inadequate to the task. His real contract was only to do what he could, to try to find a way, and to go as far on the road as his strength of mind and body allowed. He did that. I do not myself see that the breaking of his mind and will under demonic pressure after torment was any more a _moral_ failure than the breaking of his body would have been – say, by being strangled by Gollum, or crushed by a falling rock. > > That appears to have been the judgement of Gandalf and Aragorn and of all who learned the full story of his journey. Certainly nothing would be concealed by Frodo! So it’s not clear that it was common knowledge. I’d say Frodo told just a few of his closest companions, and perhaps they told a very few others in strictest confidence. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-who-knew-about-frodos-failure/689460/17 "2014-05-29T07:01:52Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > It’s incredibly foolish! Take the weapon right into the homeland of the enemy? Why not base the Manhattan Project in Kyoto! They’ll never notice it there! > > Frodo’s idea of tossing it into the ocean made more sense. Okay, yeah, it’ll come back. But we’ll have bought a few centuries of peace. That’s also a bad plan…but it’s less bad! (And, hey, one of the Silmarils was thrown into the sea and lost forever. The ring might not find its way back!) But you would not have bought a few centuries of peace. Even without the Ring in his possession, Sauron had more than enough firepower to crush Gondor, and that’s the ball game. Neither Lothlorien nor Rivendell nor the Grey Havens nor even Tom Bombadil can hold out when the Dark Lord turns up in person - at least, that’s the Council’s assessment of the situation, even if Tom only goes when everything else is defeated. The Battle of the Pelennor Fields was close-run as it was, and even then the Free only won because Sauron had struck too soon. He had many more armies to replace the one he had lost. Sauron’s full military power is seen only for the brief few minutes after the Black Gate opens and before the Ring is destroyed. ---
**Author:** ![bucketybuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@bucketybuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bucketybuck)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-who-knew-about-frodos-failure/689460/18 "2014-05-29T07:40:03Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Frodo’s idea of tossing it into the ocean made more sense. Okay, yeah, it’ll come back. But we’ll have bought a few centuries of peace. That’s also a bad plan…but it’s less bad! Is it? If the ring still exists anywhere then Sauron wins, the good guys had nothing to stop even his conventional forces. The only way the good guys win is if the ring gets destroyed and takes Sauron with it. So leaving it intact but under the ocean sounds like a very bad idea. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-who-knew-about-frodos-failure/689460/19 "2014-05-29T08:11:08Z")
Had they not destroyed it, the only other course I can think of is to threaten to overthrow Sauron with The Ring. It does Sauron no good if Galadriel becomes the next Dark Lord. The other option is just give the damn thing to her. Go ahead, knocker self out Galadriel. Reforge An Elvan Empire, with everyone paying homage to your great beauty. Beats the hell out of shoveling shit out of Warg pens. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2014, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-who-knew-about-frodos-failure/689460/20 "2014-05-29T10:26:07Z")
…And she would end up the kind of tyrant that would make Jadis look like a piker. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-who-knew-about-frodos-failure/689460.md?page=2)