# LOTR Question: Why did Sauron need the ring? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 2, 2012, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-why-did-sauron-need-the-ring/630225 "2012-08-02T22:23:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2012, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-why-did-sauron-need-the-ring/630225/41 "2012-08-05T17:48:08Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Me too. May have. But I also wonder why Saruman didn’t seize the ring when he imprisoned Gandalf. I would guess the ring was hidden, and Saruman was unable to see it - just as Sam was unable to see Galadriel’s ring when Frodo could. I would also note that Saruman captured Gandalf the _Grey_, and all his powers were cloaked then. It’s Gandalf the _White_ who frees Theoden, and he is described as being “Saruman as he should have been” - and so may have had similar powers of persuasion to Saruman. It was not necessarily his ring. ---
**Author:** ![Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8491ac/32.png) [@Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fake_Tales_of_San_Francisco)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2012, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-why-did-sauron-need-the-ring/630225/42 "2012-08-05T18:06:12Z")
> [@Filbert](#): > > ETA: Y’all missed a big reason for why Sauron needs the ring: if you destroy it _he dies_. That’s exactly what I’d come into the thread to say. And this also one of the reasons why Sauron is more powerful with the ring in his possession - he’s pretty much immortal. ---
**Author:** ![standingwave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@standingwave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/standingwave)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2012, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-why-did-sauron-need-the-ring/630225/43 "2012-08-05T20:11:33Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I would guess the ring was hidden, and Saruman was unable to see it - just as Sam was unable to see Galadriel’s ring when Frodo could. But in Unfinished Tales we learn that Saruman knew that Cirdan had given Narya to Gandalf: _And the Grey Messenger took the Ring, and kept it ever secret; yet the White Messenger (who was skilled to uncover all secrets) after a time **became aware of this gift, and begrudged it** , and it was the beginning of the hidden ill-will that he bore to the Grey, which afterwards became manifest._ (UT, The Istari) I don’t know if there’s a completely satisfactory explanation. Perhaps S no longer cared that G had a ring of power? Poke around in the soup long enough and you’re bound to reveal bones. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2012, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-why-did-sauron-need-the-ring/630225/44 "2012-08-05T21:48:20Z")
> [@standingwave](#): > > But in Unfinished Tales we learn that Saruman knew that Cirdan had given Narya to Gandalf: > > _And the Grey Messenger took the Ring, and kept it ever secret; yet the White Messenger (who was skilled to uncover all secrets) after a time **became aware of this gift, and begrudged it** , and it was the beginning of the hidden ill-will that he bore to the Grey, which afterwards became manifest._ (UT, The Istari) > > I don’t know if there’s a completely satisfactory explanation. Perhaps S no longer cared that G had a ring of power? Poke around in the soup long enough and you’re bound to reveal bones. Huh, I must have missed that bit. It’s an interesting question, in that case. My first guess would be to say that Saruman was not powerful enough to take the ring against Gandalf’s will, and perhaps hoped that by imprisoning him he’d find a way to get it. Although it’s possible he didn’t much care, as the power of the Three seems to be in the opposite direction to Saruman’s goals, being in conservation and preservation rather than destruction and innovation. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2012, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-why-did-sauron-need-the-ring/630225/45 "2012-08-05T21:50:32Z")
> [@Filbert](#): > > ETA: Y’all missed a big reason for why Sauron needs the ring: if you destroy it _he dies_. Nitpick: He’s not technically killed; he’d just stripped of so much power that’s he’s reduced to bodiless impotence. Which is as good as being killed for practical purposes. ---
**Author:** ![Grestarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grestarian/32/3227_2.png) [@Grestarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grestarian)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-why-did-sauron-need-the-ring/630225/46 "2012-08-06T21:01:58Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Fear and domination seem to have been the weapons of the Dark Lords. Have been? That’s a timeless strategy of evil, anywhere. —G! But there is a need to keep some things a secret The names of some people The terms of some deals Above all the sound of the screams of the innocent beneath our wheels . --Jackson Browne . _The word “Justice”_ . Lives in the Balance ---
**Author:** ![that\_darn\_cat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/59ef9b/32.png) [@that\_darn\_cat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/that_darn_cat)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-why-did-sauron-need-the-ring/630225/47 "2012-08-06T21:47:39Z")
As a totally non-canonical answer, in the Middle Earth RPG, the one ring was a 9x power point multiplier. So it’d be pretty kickass for any spellcaster. I also seem to recall some vague text about it enhancing the wearer’s natural abilities, e.g. Samwise would be the most powerful and skilled gardener Middle Earth has ever seen! ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-why-did-sauron-need-the-ring/630225/48 "2012-08-06T21:51:35Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > My first guess would be to say that Saruman was not powerful enough to take the ring against Gandalf’s will, and perhaps hoped that by imprisoning him he’d find a way to get it. Also, the ring was hidden somewhere in Gandalf’s beard, and what with the pipe-weed, the sloppy eating, and all the rough living out on the road, reaching in there was just too nasty. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-why-did-sauron-need-the-ring/630225/49 "2012-08-06T22:30:59Z")
> [@that\_darn\_cat](#): > > I also seem to recall some vague text about it enhancing the wearer’s natural abilities, e.g. Samwise would be the most powerful and skilled gardener Middle Earth has ever seen! Yes; just as it made the Dwarf-lords better at gathering wealth. It’s an amplifier; it draws on the “Morgoth element” that Sauron’s old master Morgoth infused into the world when he twisted and corrupted it, and uses that power to enhance whatever the user is good at. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-why-did-sauron-need-the-ring/630225/50 "2012-08-06T22:54:37Z")
> [@](#): > > Yes; just as it made the Dwarf-lords better at gathering wealth. And also made them more miserly and covetous about it. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-why-did-sauron-need-the-ring/630225/51 "2012-08-06T23:32:46Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > Also, the ring was hidden somewhere in Gandalf’s beard, and what with the pipe-weed, the sloppy eating, and all the rough living out on the road, reaching in there was just too nasty. Nope, just as Elrond and Galadriel’s rings preserved their realms in a pristine state, safe from evil and corruption, Gandalf’s did the same to his beard. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2012, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-why-did-sauron-need-the-ring/630225/52 "2012-08-06T23:41:46Z")
> [@Grestarian](#): > > Have been? > That’s a timeless strategy of evil, anywhere. > > —G! > > But there is a need > to keep some things a secret > The names of some people > The terms of some deals > Above all the sound of the > screams of the innocent > beneath our wheels > . --Jackson Browne > . _The word “Justice”_ > . Lives in the Balance Love that album. Is that the one “Lawyers in Love” is on? ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2012, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-why-did-sauron-need-the-ring/630225/53 "2012-08-08T00:28:07Z")
> [@bramma23](#): > > Plus it’s tricky to compare Sauron from the Second Age to the one we see in the movies or read about in LOTR, most importantly because while the ring makes Sauron more powerful, without it he is less powerful (than he was before the ring) because a great deal of his original power was used and transferred into the ring. Not according to most Tolkien scholars, as told in the FAQ of the Rings linked above. As long as the ring existed, he has full power. The ring makes him more powerful if he wears it, but he’s still able to use all his power that he used in creating it from afar–until it is destroyed. Which is much more interesting than what I thought after the movies: that it was his horcrux. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2012, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-why-did-sauron-need-the-ring/630225/54 "2012-08-08T17:39:53Z")
> [@the\_diego](#): > > Here’s my question: Why did Gandalf straightaway reject the mouth of Sauron’s terms at the gates of Mordor and chose instead to retrieve: > > 1. the mithril coat, > 2. the elvish cloak, and > 3. the westernesse sword? > > Did Gandalf believe Frodo was still alive since the sting was missing? Or, dead or alive, Sauron’s terms were unacceptable? As others have said I think it’s clear Gandalf knew that Sauron didn’t have the Ring at this point, so one of Frodo and Sam were still at large. Of course the terms were unacceptable – better die fighting the good fight, etc. As far as retreiving the items-- and this is probably after-the-fact fanwanking – the whole point of going ot the gates of Mordor was to distract Sauron from the ringbearers. Gandalf was therefore trying to do be as insulting as possible, so the big S would get even more pissed off and distracted. How to be insulting? Pretend to listen seriously to the offered terms, then abruptly reject them and physically grab stuff from the negotiator, followed by insults. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-question-why-did-sauron-need-the-ring/630225.md?page=2)