# LOTR questions about Ringwraiths **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 20, 2019, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-questions-about-ringwraiths/829864 "2019-02-20T00:56:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-questions-about-ringwraiths/829864/41 "2019-02-21T00:02:49Z")
Turin is a tragic character, but he’s not a classically tragic character. Yes, he has his flaws, and he goes through great suffering, but his great suffering is mostly not due to his flaws, but due to a curse a powerful enemy put upon him. ---
**Author:** ![dzeiger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/46a35a/32.png) [@dzeiger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dzeiger)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-questions-about-ringwraiths/829864/42 "2019-02-21T01:53:16Z")
> [@Balance](#): > > Or perhaps Glorfindel foresaw more detail than he described, and deliberately phrased it ambiguously, knowing that the Witch-King would learn of his prophecy. As a consequence, the Witch-King arrogantly dismissed the threat when it finally arrived, giving Merry and Éowyn their opening to strike him down. One thought I had was that the Witch-King’s own belief in the prophesy may have been what killed him. Maybe some other Nazgul would have been able to re-incorporate later, embarrassed at being beaten up by a hobbit and a girl, but the Witch-King is pretty much a shadowy manifestation of arrogance so that the very idea of being anything other than invincible is itself destructive to his spirit. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-questions-about-ringwraiths/829864/43 "2019-02-21T02:06:14Z")
> [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](#): > > 1. Eärnur takes the bait, rides after the WK, is never seen again. He didn’t ride after the Witch King after that battle. It wasn’t until 75 years later, after Earnur had become King and the Witch-King had taken up residence in Minas Morgul, that he responded to the Witch King’s challenge to single combat by going to the tower…and was never seen again. Earnur wasn’t the sharpest sword in the armory. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-questions-about-ringwraiths/829864/44 "2019-02-21T02:07:08Z")
Is it clear that Glorfindel is the origin of the prophecy? Maybe he was just telling Earnur what was already generally known among the elves (and the Nazgul). ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-questions-about-ringwraiths/829864/45 "2019-02-21T11:38:16Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > And Theoden was not a weak man. Neither was he of Numenorean stock. More is expected of the latter. ---
**Author:** ![Arjuna34](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Arjuna34](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arjuna34)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-questions-about-ringwraiths/829864/46 "2019-02-21T12:16:52Z")
What happened to the witch-king’s ring, between the time he was killed and the time that the One Ring was destroyed? Did it just fall to the ground during the battle? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-questions-about-ringwraiths/829864/47 "2019-02-21T13:04:58Z")
> [@DesertDog](#): > > Neither was he of Numenorean stock. More is expected of the latter. Oh, I agree - but it was an example of how much stronger Denethor was, and how much more he endured before he cracked. Without him, Gondor would have fallen earlier and Sauron would have won. Denethor may not have ultimately been entirely successful, or entirely good in a moral sense, but he did _enough_, even though it cost him his sanity and ultimately his life. We should all hope to fail so well. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-questions-about-ringwraiths/829864/48 "2019-02-21T13:09:17Z")
> [@Arjuna34](#): > > What happened to the witch-king’s ring, between the time he was killed and the time that the One Ring was destroyed? Did it just fall to the ground during the battle? Sauron kept possession of the rings, that’s how he could control the Nazgul. Admittedly this isn’t made very clear, and was a lateish change to the story that wasn’t quite fully carried out. Or, to headcanon it, Elrond believed that the 9 did carry their rings. [Cite to a Tolkien wiki.](http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Nine_Rings#Possession_of_the_Nine_Rings) ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-questions-about-ringwraiths/829864/49 "2019-02-21T16:43:35Z")
I think (not bothering to look it up and confirm) that Tolkien freely admits he lifted the idea of sneakily worded prophecies coming to fruition, from Macbeth: that Macbeth will be defeated when Birnham Wood comes to Dunsinane (ents coming to Orthanc), and that he can’t be beaten by any man born of a woman. Macbeth is killed by Macduff, who was born via Caesarean. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-questions-about-ringwraiths/829864/50 "2019-02-21T16:59:24Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > I think (not bothering to look it up and confirm) that Tolkien freely admits he lifted the idea of sneakily worded prophecies coming to fruition, from Macbeth: that Macbeth will be defeated when Birnham Wood comes to Dunsinane (ents coming to Orthanc), and that he can’t be beaten by any man born of a woman. Macbeth is killed by Macduff, who was born via Caesarean. In a previous thread, someone said that Tolkien thought the fact that Birnham Wood didn’t actually come to Dunsinane was a bit of a cheat, so he actually had the Ents bring a marching forest of Huorns to relieve the siege of Helm’s Deep (not Orthanc). ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-questions-about-ringwraiths/829864/51 "2019-02-21T17:20:52Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Oh, I agree - but it was an example of how much stronger Denethor was, and how much more he endured before he cracked. Without him, Gondor would have fallen earlier and Sauron would have won. Denethor may not have ultimately been entirely successful, or entirely good in a moral sense, but he did _enough_, even though it cost him his sanity and ultimately his life. We should all hope to fail so well. I agree with all that, but think that still qualifies Denthenor to be a classic ‘tragic figure’. His pride is what drove him to fight as hard as he did and endure and accomplish as much as he did to defend Gondor, but his pride also led him to try to use the palantir (and therefore be deceived by Sauron), and his (somewhat warped) pride is what led him at the end to refuse to fight to the end, instead deciding that he should control his own death\*. (\* It’s OK if the Divinely Ordained True King decides to do it, of course. But Eru forbid the servant types get ideas above their station. That’s a different conversation, though ) ---
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-questions-about-ringwraiths/829864/52 "2019-02-21T17:22:11Z")
Yes, Tolkien was famously rather dismissive of Shakespeare and objected to his solution of the Birnham Wood prophecy (a bunch of guys carrying sticks?!). I personally have never liked his solution to the “woman born” prophecy either. A child delivered via Caesarian is still born of a woman. The Mirror of Galadriel may arguably also be lifted from MacBeth, although Shakespeare didn’t invent the idea of scrying devices. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-questions-about-ringwraiths/829864/53 "2019-02-21T17:56:03Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > I agree with all that, but think that still qualifies Denthenor to be a classic ‘tragic figure’. His pride is what drove him to fight as hard as he did and endure and accomplish as much as he did to defend Gondor, but his pride also led him to try to use the palantir (and therefore be deceived by Sauron), and his (somewhat warped) pride is what led him at the end to refuse to fight to the end, instead deciding that he should control his own death\*. > > (\* It’s OK if the Divinely Ordained True King decides to do it, of course. But Eru forbid the servant types get ideas above their station. That’s a different conversation, though ) I’ve actually just finished a reread of the Unfinished Tales, which contains quite a bit about Denethor, and makes it clear that, as Steward, he had the full right to use the Palantir - as much right as the Kings did. I also think that it was not pride but despair that ultimately led to him refusing to fight at the end, although pride and the (well justified) personal dislike of Aragorn and Gandalf probably didn’t help. I don’t think it was purely that _a_ King was returning that bothered Denethor so much, as the fact that it was _Aragorn_ specifically, and the (to Denethor’s eyes) somewhat underhanded way he went about it. But then, for all his nobility and strength, I don’t actually like Aragorn all that much. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-questions-about-ringwraiths/829864/54 "2019-02-21T18:31:00Z")
> [@markn\_1](#): > > Yes, Tolkien was famously rather dismissive of Shakespeare and objected to his solution of the Birnham Wood prophecy (a bunch of guys carrying sticks?!). I personally have never liked his solution to the “woman born” prophecy either. A child delivered via Caesarian is still born of a woman… What my HS Junior year English teacher told us was that the child was not “born” at all, but delivered artificially. A semantic dodge that we all, I think, fell for. ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2019, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-questions-about-ringwraiths/829864/55 "2019-02-21T18:44:07Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > pride is what led him at the end to refuse to fight to the end, instead deciding that he should control his own death\*. > > (\* It’s OK if the Divinely Ordained True King decides to do it, of course. But Eru forbid the servant types get ideas above their station. That’s a different conversation, though ) To be fair, what the Divinely Ordained True Kings did was effectively choose when to die of old age. Denethor outright attempted murder-suicide of his whole kingdom. I think there’s a a bit of a difference there. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2019, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-questions-about-ringwraiths/829864/56 "2019-02-22T13:29:22Z")
> [@Folacin](#): > > He had a copy of the book. You mean like poor Bromosel did? 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-questions-about-ringwraiths/829864.md?page=2)