# LOTR: Questions about the wizards (possible spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 12, 2003, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-questions-about-the-wizards-possible-spoilers/201086 "2003-09-12T00:14:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-questions-about-the-wizards-possible-spoilers/201086/61 "2003-09-15T11:37:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Desmostylus \* > \*\*And looking at my list above, it may be wrong in places. For instance, I see elsewhere that Elendur is listed as a son of Isildur, so if someone can do a better list, have at it. \*\* Scratch that. There were _two_ Elendurs. One was the son of Valandur, as listed above, the other was son of Isildur, and brother of Valandil II. But, now, I see that 7 and 8 on my list shouldn’t be there. I give up. I still stand by my estimate of around 65, but there just aren’t records of the ones between Valandil I and Earendur I. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-questions-about-the-wizards-possible-spoilers/201086/62 "2003-09-15T12:41:24Z")
Yes, I blame JRRT for not listing out all the Lords of Andunie! ---
**Author:** ![NE\_Texan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e99b99/32.png) [@NE\_Texan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NE_Texan)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-questions-about-the-wizards-possible-spoilers/201086/63 "2003-09-15T12:46:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by look!ninjas \* > There’s a couple of things that I wanted to point out on **Whack-a-Mole** ’s question #8 - “How was Saruman beguiled to the dark side?” A lot of this is due to the influence of the Ring, which is a powerful corrupter. Even Gandalf, at the beginning of the book, says “I dare not take it, not even to keep it safe, unused. The wish to wield it would be too much for my strength.” (I believe the line in the movie is “Understand, Frodo, I would use the Ring out of a desire to do good, at first” or something similar.) Galadriel is also tempted. Most of Sauron’s power is in the Ring (which is why he is weakened in the first place), and the Ring has a will of its own, and wants to return to him. It’s a very dangerous thing. In addition, there’s the palantir in Isengard, which I didn’t go into in depth in my previous post. These were meant as a mental communication system (to understate the case) for the Numenoreans. By the time Saruman gets to Isengard, Sauron has one of them (the one from Minas Ithil, as **Orbifold** points out). You can see the effect it has when other people use it - Denethor’s madness in the third book, Pippin’s nightmares from looking into it just the one time. Saruman may well have had good intentions when he looked into it, knowing that he had strength, and lacking other examples (or a surety that Sauron already had one). Gradually, though, it must have played a major part in how Sauron corrupted Saruman. Now, Saruman may have been thinking, “I need to pretend to work with Sauron to survive long enough to get the ring, then I can turn on him.” But that’s just the kind of thought Sauron would manipulate him with. It’s interesting to note that Gandalf is wise enough to know not to use it - whether he figured it out on his own, or saw the example of Saruman, is an interesting question. Anyway, I think when you’re wondering how Saruman was corrupted, you have to take the palantir - and Sauron’s influence through it - into account as a major factor. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-questions-about-the-wizards-possible-spoilers/201086/64 "2003-09-15T12:53:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Qadgop the Mercotan \* > \*\*Yes, I blame JRRT for not listing out all the Lords of Andunie! \*\* Well, Aragorn’s ancestry plays a critical role in LOTR. Reclaiming the kingship, re-uniting the long sundered houses and all that. A bit of extra attention to the back-story wouldn’t have gone astray. 😉 But, if **Chronos** claims to have counted them all… ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-questions-about-the-wizards-possible-spoilers/201086/65 "2003-09-15T16:30:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Qadgop the Mercotan \* > He most certainly does! Bah. I meant during the WotR. :o ---
**Author:** ![Eurograff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/df705f/32.png) [@Eurograff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eurograff)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-questions-about-the-wizards-possible-spoilers/201086/66 "2003-09-15T19:13:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Desmostylus \* > \*\*This is how I count them: > > Elros > … > … > Aragorn > > There’s 49 intervening ancestors whose names we know. But, Valandil I was born in 630, whilst Elendil was born in 3119. Allowing for 150 years between generations requires about 20 generations between Valandil I and Elendil, not the 4 listed above. That gives a total of something like 65 intervening ancestors. \*\* According to [Middle-Earth Science Pages](http://people.wiesbaden.netsurf.de/~lalaith/Tolkien/Dynasty.html) this is about right. The site lists total of 16 Lords of Andúnië between Valandil and Amandil, Elendil’s father. However I couldn’t find any information about how this number is determined. Maybe someone has another sources about it? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-questions-about-the-wizards-possible-spoilers/201086/67 "2003-09-15T22:01:43Z")
> [@](#): > > Elrond also counts among his ancestors Olwe, Elwe, **Beor** and Marach, who were first generation “Children of Iluvatar” anyway. Beor wasn’t first-generation, he was just the earliest human mentioned in the geneaologies. By Beor’s time, the origin of humans was already distant myth (by human reckoning, at least). And I did count them once, and I’m sure I remember there being 43 (I’m good at remembering numbers). But I didn’t memorize the list, and I’ll have to look them up again. By Wednesday I should be able to post my list. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2003, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-questions-about-the-wizards-possible-spoilers/201086/68 "2003-09-16T01:00:05Z")
Hey, let’s make up names for those missing lords of Andunië! After Valandil comes Isordil, then Mevacor, then Indocin, then Inderal, then Lotensin, then Wygesic! ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2003, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-questions-about-the-wizards-possible-spoilers/201086/69 "2003-09-16T01:14:30Z")
Don’t forget Bromoseltzer! ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2003, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-questions-about-the-wizards-possible-spoilers/201086/70 "2003-09-16T01:26:03Z")
Brother of Farahslax? ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2003, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-questions-about-the-wizards-possible-spoilers/201086/71 "2003-09-16T01:37:55Z")
Arrowroot son of Arrowshirt. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2003, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-questions-about-the-wizards-possible-spoilers/201086/72 "2003-09-16T01:50:10Z")
[Elven sexual mores](http://amethyst-angel.com/bored_prelude.html) ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2003, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-questions-about-the-wizards-possible-spoilers/201086/73 "2003-09-16T02:28:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Qadgop the Mercotan \* > \*\*Hey, let’s make up names for those missing lords of Andunië! After Valandil comes Isordil, then Mevacor, then Indocin, then Inderal, then Lotensin, then Wygesic! \*\* No fair! You’re just copyng them out of the Glaxo Smith Kline catalog! 😃 > [@](#): > > Then spake Xanax the Old to Elorphane the Lord of the Annostar… ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2003, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-questions-about-the-wizards-possible-spoilers/201086/74 "2003-09-16T06:26:40Z")
> [@](#): > > And then Trogdor smote the Kerrick and all was laid to burnination. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2003, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-questions-about-the-wizards-possible-spoilers/201086/75 "2003-09-16T07:15:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chronos \* > \*\*Beor wasn’t first-generation, he was just the earliest human mentioned in the geneaologies. By Beor’s time, the origin of humans was already distant myth (by human reckoning, at least). > \*\* I guess I’ll accept that. It says: > [@](#): > > Now these were a part of the kindred and following of Beor the Old, as he was afterward called, a chieftain among Men. After many lives of wandering out of the East he had led them at last over the Blue Mountains, the first of the race of Men to enter Beleriand; At the time this happens, 300 years have passed since Men first awoke. The same would apply to Marach as well. ---
**Author:** ![Odinoneeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/97f17d/32.png) [@Odinoneeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odinoneeye)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2003, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-questions-about-the-wizards-possible-spoilers/201086/76 "2003-09-16T11:12:35Z")
I have a question (slight hijack thread here)… Why was Gandalf involved with the dwarves in The Hobbit? and why did he involve Bilbo? It always seemed odd to me that he would involve himself in something so minor. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2003, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-questions-about-the-wizards-possible-spoilers/201086/77 "2003-09-16T12:36:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Odinoneeye \* > \*\*I have a question (slight hijack thread here)… > > Why was Gandalf involved with the dwarves in The Hobbit? and why did he involve Bilbo? > > It always seemed odd to me that he would involve himself in something so minor. \*\* Something as minor as, say, ridding the world of an enormous dragon which would have sided with Sauron? ---
**Author:** ![Lilacs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Lilacs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lilacs)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2003, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-questions-about-the-wizards-possible-spoilers/201086/78 "2003-09-16T15:21:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Desmostylus \* > \*\*Something as minor as, say, ridding the world of an enormous dragon which would have sided with Sauron? \*\* To elabroate, **Odinoneeye** , Gandalf had a “chance” meeting with Thorin in Bree, as he was on his way to the Shire. He was concerned that if the Necromancer (Sauron) wasn’t driven out of Mirkwood, that he might influence Smaug to launch an attack against the elves in Rivendell (and probably Lothlorien and Mirkwood). Gandalf simply took the opportunity and ran with it. (my info is taken from one of the may appendices on RoTK.) ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2003, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-questions-about-the-wizards-possible-spoilers/201086/79 "2003-09-16T18:42:57Z")
As long as this thread is drifting all over the place, what was the cause of the enmity between the Elves and the Dwarves? I’ve forgotten what it is and prowled around the appendices with no luck. The Noldor and the dwarves of Dwarrowdelf were quite friendly – the Moria gate was a joint project – but from some time after that to what amounts to the present they were at each other’s throats. The Battle of the Five Armies at the end of _The Hobbit_ was a Dwarves vs. Elves and Men slugfest until a common enemy – Goblins and Wargs – showed up. It was a mark of the seriousness of the situation that Dwarves were invited to the council of Elrond at all. So what caused the rift? DD ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2003, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-questions-about-the-wizards-possible-spoilers/201086/80 "2003-09-16T20:29:42Z")
I’ll jump in with a vague answer until somebody who actually knows comes along… I believe it had to do with the Silmarils, and a necklace made by the dwarves out of the one jewel that Beren recovered…and some nasty disputes over payment, or some such. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-questions-about-the-wizards-possible-spoilers/201086.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-questions-about-the-wizards-possible-spoilers/201086.md?page=5)