# LotR: Saruman vs Sauron (but not how you think)? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 12, 2017, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-saruman-vs-sauron-but-not-how-you-think/788768 "2017-06-12T12:26:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2017, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-saruman-vs-sauron-but-not-how-you-think/788768/1 "2017-06-12T12:26:21Z")
My impression was that Saruman had joined with Sauron. That they had struck some kind of deal. But a few dopers have pointed out that they didn’t think Saruman had really ever joined with Sauron. So let’s suppose that’s true. Saruman is either plotting to get the one ring for himself or is just preparing for the eventual lose of Man and what’s to survive as long as he can. Further let’s suppose the ring is lost somewhere (there’s plenty of opportunity for it to be lost during Frodo’s adventures), I think it is clear the Sauron with the ring and the might of Mordor can crush Saruman. Let’s suppose the ring will be lost for 500 years before it surfaces again. So in one corner Saurman with the might of Isengard and his Uruk-hai vs Sauron with Mordor? Mordor is clearly stronger in terms of man… orcpower. But their leader isn’t quite himself. Saruman has uruk-hai, and we’ll suppose in this alternate history that he has conquered Rohan and everything west and north. Mordo has taken Minas Tirth and has everything east and south. What do you think? How long can Saruman hold out? Can he win? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2017, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-saruman-vs-sauron-but-not-how-you-think/788768/2 "2017-06-12T15:32:56Z")
I don’t think that Saruman had any long-term plans that didn’t involve him capturing the One Ring. All of his other plans, at best, would merely delay the inevitable. Whatever military might he might develop, for instance, might convince Sauron to look elsewhere for easier conquests, but eventually he’d run out of those easier conquests and bring his full weight to bear against Saruman, a weight that Saruman could not hope to withstand. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2017, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-saruman-vs-sauron-but-not-how-you-think/788768/3 "2017-06-12T16:44:22Z")
The problem for Saruman is that his explicate mandate within Middle Earth was to advise the peoples there, not rule over them. The Valar were surely displeased with him. Fortunately, they had learned their lessons from previous rebellions and placed limits and conditions on the Istari. So Gandalf could and did revoke his power by their authority. Could his power be revoked by other means, or only by the deliberate action of a peer? I can imagine a great Eagle carrying Saruman off to certain destruction. Or perhaps his apparent agelessness coming to an unexpected end. Assuming his power was not revoked, Saruman stood no chance against Sauron, once his attention became focused. Unless Saruman had the One Ring, in which case Sauron would face destruction as his armies and allies rallied to the new overlord. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2017, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-saruman-vs-sauron-but-not-how-you-think/788768/4 "2017-06-12T17:58:21Z")
> [@BeepKillBeep](#): > > So in one corner Saurman with the might of Isengard and his Uruk-hai vs Sauron with Mordor? I’m pretty sure that Saurman wasn’t nearly the match that he thought he was. [QUOTE=JRR Tolkien] “A strong place and wonderful was Isengard, and long it had been beautiful; and there great lords had dwelt, the wardens of Gondor upon the West, and wise men that watched the stars. But Saruman had slowly shaped it to his shifting purposes, and made it better, as he thought, being deceived - for all those arts and subtle devices for which he forsook his former wisdom, and which fondly he imagined were his own, came but from Mordor; so that what he made was naught, only a little copy, a child’s model or a slave’s flattery, of that vast fortress, armoury, prison, furnace of great power, Barad-dûr, The Dark Tower, which suffered no rival, and laughed at flattery, biding it’s time, secure in its pride and its immeasurable strength.” [/QUOTE] A central feature of the Sauron/Saruman relationship was Sauron corrupting him and deceiving Saruman into thinking that he was becoming more powerful than he actually was by his own efforts, instead of making toy versions of what Sauron had. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2017, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-saruman-vs-sauron-but-not-how-you-think/788768/5 "2017-06-12T18:27:08Z")
Saurman had no chance without the ring. Sauron without the Ring had already grown too powerful for what was left of the Defense of the West. Without the desperate risk of destroying the Ring, Sauron would have conquered Gondor and then the rest of the West. Small pockets like Lothlorien, Rivendell, Bombadil, The Grey Havens & Thranduil may have held out for a long time. The Dwarves for a shorter time. But all men in towns & villages would have fallen to the Dark Lord. Sauron with the Ring means the Elves would have fallen nearly as swiftly as the men. ---
**Author:** ![BeepKillBeep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@BeepKillBeep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeepKillBeep)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2017, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-saruman-vs-sauron-but-not-how-you-think/788768/6 "2017-06-12T20:35:03Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I’m pretty sure that Saurman wasn’t nearly the match that he thought he was. > > A central feature of the Sauron/Saruman relationship was Sauron corrupting him and deceiving Saruman into thinking that he was becoming more powerful than he actually was by his own efforts, instead of making toy versions of what Sauron had. Well, I guess that answers that. Kind of hard to argue with the author. He presumably knows his lore better than any one else. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2017, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-saruman-vs-sauron-but-not-how-you-think/788768/7 "2017-06-12T22:39:43Z")
Mmmmm, not so sure Saruman is a walkover for Sauron. Both Sauron and Saruman are Maiar. It’s clear from the extended writings that there are different levels of Maiar. Some are very powerful, almost like Valar. See, for example, Oromë. Others are minor powers (think dryads, etc.). Where in this hierarchy Saruman falls is unclear. We do know, however, that Gandalf was a particular favorite of at least one Vala, and the implication is that he wasn’t exactly a minor functionary. Sauron was at one point very powerful for a Maia. However, he’s poured a significant amount of his power into the Ring; minus the Ring, he is definitely weakened. Just how weak that is we’ll never know. ---
**Author:** ![si\_blakely](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@si\_blakely](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/si_blakely)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2017, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-saruman-vs-sauron-but-not-how-you-think/788768/8 "2017-06-13T00:25:01Z")
Even if Saruman had recovered the ring, I doubt he could have mastered it sufficiently to conquer Sauron. Gandalf talks of Saruman’s power being in words - persuasion, cajoling, convincing. Sauron’s power, and that power imbued in the One Ring, was outright domination. Even at height of Saruman’s hubris, I don’t think he could have **commanded** the power of the ring - rather, he would have been dominated. Galadrial, on the other hand … ---
**Author:** ![Weisshund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba8739/32.png) [@Weisshund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weisshund)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2017, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-saruman-vs-sauron-but-not-how-you-think/788768/9 "2017-06-13T01:14:41Z")
Saruman wouldn’t be VS Sauron Once Saruman found the ring that would be game over. It would be more a case of the ring finding him, and them making him bring it home. He might play with it for a while, but the ring would use him to it’s masters bidding. Saruman is already corrupted by the idea of the ring, he wont be able to refute it’s will, it will have its way with him. ---
**Author:** ![Weisshund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba8739/32.png) [@Weisshund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weisshund)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2017, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-saruman-vs-sauron-but-not-how-you-think/788768/10 "2017-06-13T01:17:40Z")
> [@si\_blakely](#): > > Galadrial, on the other hand … Would have the power to walk away from it, not to use it. There is no good in the ring to use, only hatred and malice, and even she can not bend these things to good. Nor Gandalf even. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2017, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-saruman-vs-sauron-but-not-how-you-think/788768/11 "2017-06-13T01:59:28Z")
Saruman’s army got eaten by freakin’ TREES. His citadel got drowned by Ents. The Ring had nothing to do with it. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2017, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-saruman-vs-sauron-but-not-how-you-think/788768/12 "2017-06-13T02:27:17Z")
[QUOTE=DSYoungEsq] Mmmmm, not so sure Saruman is a walkover for Sauron. Both Sauron and Saruman are Maiar. It’s clear from the extended writings that there are different levels of Maiar. Some are very powerful, almost like Valar. See, for example, Oromë. Others are minor powers (think dryads, etc.). Where in this hierarchy Saruman falls is unclear. We do know, however, that Gandalf was a particular favorite of at least one Vala, and the implication is that he wasn’t exactly a minor functionary. Sauron was at one point very powerful for a Maia. However, he’s poured a significant amount of his power into the Ring; minus the Ring, he is definitely weakened. Just how weak that is we’ll never know. [/QUOTE] Well we know Sauron & Saruman were both Maia of Aulë. Oromë was a Valar, not a Maiar. Gandalf was not one of the most powerful of the Maiar but he was considered the wisest. He was Olórin in the West. ---
**Author:** ![si\_blakely](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@si\_blakely](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/si_blakely)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2017, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-saruman-vs-sauron-but-not-how-you-think/788768/13 "2017-06-13T03:31:59Z")
> [@Weisshund](#): > > Would have the power to walk away from it, not to use it. > There is no good in the ring to use, only hatred and malice, and even she can not bend these things to good. Nor Gandalf even. You missed my point - I know she did have the power to walk away. But _had_ she wielded it, she would have commanded the ring and ruled, even if it was terrible and corrupting - Galadriel had the internal power and authority to hold Lothlorien against the fading of the third age and I have no doubt she _could_ have used the One Ring in the same way. Saruman, not so much. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2017, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-saruman-vs-sauron-but-not-how-you-think/788768/14 "2017-06-13T18:14:54Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Well we know Sauron & Saruman were both Maia of Aulë. > > Oromë was a Valar, not a Maiar. > > Gandalf was not one of the most powerful of the Maiar but he was considered the wisest. He was Olórin in the West. Ugh, I meant Eönwë. ---
**Author:** ![Weisshund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba8739/32.png) [@Weisshund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weisshund)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2017, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-saruman-vs-sauron-but-not-how-you-think/788768/15 "2017-06-13T21:43:54Z")
> [@si\_blakely](#): > > You missed my point - I know she did have the power to walk away. > But _had_ she wielded it, she would have commanded the ring and ruled, even if it was terrible and corrupting - Galadriel had the internal power and authority to hold Lothlorien against the fading of the third age and I have no doubt she _could_ have used the One Ring in the same way. > Saruman, not so much. Ok, i understand what you are saying now. I am not sure if i agree though. The ring, it isnt just any ring, and it isnt just generic hatred and malice. The ring is Sauron and Sauron is the ring, eventually it would finds its way, even through her. She may appear to run independant, for a time, and Sauron may very well be happy to sit back and let her run amok because it would play into his plans anyways, and he now knows where the ring is, why not relax a bit and let the she elf do all the work for a time? Thinking about it, she may actually be easier to bend in some ways than say Golum. Not because she is weaker or simple, but because she is not. Golum doesn’t leave much to work with i suppose. I think that is Tolkien’s idea, about the ring. The only possible option is to destroy it, and even that is a very iffy proposition. Any attempts to use it will in the end complete the circle and bring us back to Sauron. That is my take anyways Unless your name is Tom 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Weisshund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba8739/32.png) [@Weisshund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weisshund)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2017, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-saruman-vs-sauron-but-not-how-you-think/788768/16 "2017-06-13T21:47:47Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Gandalf was not one of the most powerful of the Maiar but he was considered the wisest. He was Olórin in the West. And then again in the end perhaps he was the most powerful, depending on how we view power. “_Some believe it is only great power that can hold evil in check, but that is not what I have found. It is the small everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keep the darkness at bay. Small acts of kindness and love. Why Bilbo Baggins? Perhaps because I am afraid, and he gives me courage._” ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-saruman-vs-sauron-but-not-how-you-think/788768/17 "2017-06-14T04:58:01Z")
> [@Weisshund](#): > > And then again in the end perhaps he was the most powerful, depending on how we view power. > > “_Some believe it is only great power that can hold evil in check, but that is not what I have found. It is the small everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keep the darkness at bay. Small acts of kindness and love. Why Bilbo Baggins? Perhaps because I am afraid, and he gives me courage._” What is that a quote from? It’s not from the written version of _The Hobbit_, I don’t think. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-saruman-vs-sauron-but-not-how-you-think/788768/18 "2017-06-14T12:31:50Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > What is that a quote from? It’s not from the written version of _The Hobbit_, I don’t think. I think it is only in the movie. It is not in “The Hobbit”. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-saruman-vs-sauron-but-not-how-you-think/788768/19 "2017-06-14T15:30:09Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > I think it is only in the movie. It is not in “The Hobbit”. Ok. I haven’t watched all three of those, and I have only watched the two I DID watch once. They are an abomination upon the whole Tolkien legendarium. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2017, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-saruman-vs-sauron-but-not-how-you-think/788768/20 "2017-06-14T16:26:29Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > Ok. I haven’t watched all three of those, and I have only watched the two I DID watch once. They are an abomination upon the whole Tolkien legendarium. It’s from the Hobbit movie - [talking with Galadriel @ the white council](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MU5_-lLjhQw)- something which was not in the books at all. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-saruman-vs-sauron-but-not-how-you-think/788768.md?page=2)