# LOTR speculation: The terrible secret of Tom Bombadil **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 23, 2013, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-speculation-the-terrible-secret-of-tom-bombadil/666980 "2013-08-23T16:32:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![standingwave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@standingwave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/standingwave)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-speculation-the-terrible-secret-of-tom-bombadil/666980/21 "2013-08-24T03:49:33Z")
> [@Maserschmidt](#): > > Or Tim Benzedrine. Toke-a-lid! Smoke-a-lid! Pop the mescalino! Stash the hash! Gonna crash! Make mine methedrino! Hop a hill! Pop a pill! For Old Tim Benzedrino!" ---
**Author:** ![Gagundathar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gagundathar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gagundathar)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-speculation-the-terrible-secret-of-tom-bombadil/666980/22 "2013-08-24T03:53:41Z")
> [@Maserschmidt](#): > > Or Tim Benzedrine. Forget not the magical words of Mr. Benzedrine when he was rescuing the boggies, “First, second, neutral, park. High thee hence, thou leafy narc!” The Hildebrandt Brothers’ Tolkien calendar of 1977 has a wonderful picture of Goldberry. I find it difficult to imagine this fey spirit to be evil. But, I am a sucker for a pretty face. [Image of Goldberry from Tolkien calender of 1977](https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&docid=-O0RuZ3mchQHpM&tbnid=B_o6EbHu5O9p6M:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tolkiencalendars.com%2FBAL1977.html&ei=vy0YUq2sCNG3sATG34DwCg&bvm=bv.51156542,d.b2I&psig=AFQjCNGBlJh-DycKOBnRQ4J5pA-u4CFx1g&ust=1377402607967001) ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-speculation-the-terrible-secret-of-tom-bombadil/666980/23 "2013-08-24T04:48:05Z")
> [@Gagundathar](#): > > Forget not the magical words of Mr. Benzedrine when he was rescuing the boggies, “First, second, neutral, park. High thee hence, thou leafy narc!” > > The Hildebrandt Brothers’ Tolkien calendar of 1977 has a wonderful picture of Goldberry. I find it difficult to imagine this fey spirit to be evil. But, I am a sucker for a pretty face. > [Image of Goldberry from Tolkien calender of 1977](https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&docid=-O0RuZ3mchQHpM&tbnid=B_o6EbHu5O9p6M:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tolkiencalendars.com%2FBAL1977.html&ei=vy0YUq2sCNG3sATG34DwCg&bvm=bv.51156542,d.b2I&psig=AFQjCNGBlJh-DycKOBnRQ4J5pA-u4CFx1g&ust=1377402607967001) More specifically: [http://www.tolkiencalendars.com/calPictures/1977/BAL277.jpg](http://www.tolkiencalendars.com/calPictures/1977/BAL277.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![standingwave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@standingwave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/standingwave)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2013, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-speculation-the-terrible-secret-of-tom-bombadil/666980/24 "2013-08-24T05:02:15Z")
> [@Gagundathar](#): > > Forget not the magical words of Mr. Benzedrine when he was rescuing the boggies, “First, second, neutral, park. High thee hence, thou leafy narc!” > > The Hildebrandt Brothers’ Tolkien calendar of 1977 has a wonderful picture of Goldberry. I find it difficult to imagine this fey spirit to be evil. But, I am a sucker for a pretty face. > [Image of Goldberry from Tolkien calender of 1977](https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&docid=-O0RuZ3mchQHpM&tbnid=B_o6EbHu5O9p6M:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tolkiencalendars.com%2FBAL1977.html&ei=vy0YUq2sCNG3sATG34DwCg&bvm=bv.51156542,d.b2I&psig=AFQjCNGBlJh-DycKOBnRQ4J5pA-u4CFx1g&ust=1377402607967001) I had that calendar! Yeah, hard to picture Goldberry as evil. Hashberry was more of a drugged out bimbo in Bored… At first Frito saw nothing amid the iridescent wallpaper and strobe candles but what appeared to be a heap of filthy cleaning rags. But then the pile spoke again: [INDENT] \*"Hither come and suck a pipe, \* - ``` Turn thy brains to cheese and tripe!"* ``` And then, as the boggies squinted their smarting eyes, the heap stirred and sat up revealing itself to be an incredibly emaciated, hollow-eyed female. She looked at them for a second, muttered, “Like wow,” and fell forward in a catatonic stupor with a rattle of beads. [/INDENT] ---
**Author:** ![Hoopy\_Frood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hoopy_frood/32/8452_2.png) [@Hoopy\_Frood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoopy_Frood)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-speculation-the-terrible-secret-of-tom-bombadil/666980/25 "2013-08-26T03:32:51Z")
I always liked this theory: [Tolkien Crackpot Theories](http://flyingmoose.org/tolksarc/theories/bombadil.htm) ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-speculation-the-terrible-secret-of-tom-bombadil/666980/26 "2013-08-26T15:35:25Z")
> [@Hoopy\_Frood](#): > > I always liked this theory: [Tolkien Crackpot Theories](http://flyingmoose.org/tolksarc/theories/bombadil.htm) Ha! ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-speculation-the-terrible-secret-of-tom-bombadil/666980/27 "2013-08-26T17:26:31Z")
The dude’s reappraisal of the events in episode IV in the light of I-III is [just as brilliant](http://km-515.livejournal.com/746.html). Frankly, he should’ve gone into politics—if he can make sense of this, he can make anything sound sensible! ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-speculation-the-terrible-secret-of-tom-bombadil/666980/28 "2013-08-26T17:34:04Z")
As always, I’d like to note that Tom Bombadil is the oldest living thing that still walks beneath the Sun in Middle Earth, which presumably means he’s Treebeard. ---
**Author:** ![aNewLeaf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ac91a4/32.png) [@aNewLeaf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aNewLeaf)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-speculation-the-terrible-secret-of-tom-bombadil/666980/29 "2013-08-26T17:56:17Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > The dude’s reappraisal of the events in episode IV in the light of I-III is [just as brilliant](http://km-515.livejournal.com/746.html). Frankly, he should’ve gone into politics—if he can make sense of this, he can make anything sound sensible! I may hate the earlier movies a bit less now. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-speculation-the-terrible-secret-of-tom-bombadil/666980/30 "2013-08-26T18:45:09Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > The analysis turns somewhat on the notion that Bombadil lives in a dangerous place filled with dangerous, evil things, so he must be eevil too. The counter to this is that Bombadil was so badass cool that he never even notices the dangerous nature of where he lives, because it’s not dangerous at all _to him_. This is how I see it. Perhaps the evil stuff even flourishes there because he doesn’t care about it, and no one else wants to interfere in his territory. > [@](#): > > Do I think that Tolkien planned things in this way? Not at all, but I find it an interesting speculation. For me, this is quite relevant. I certainly do find it an _interesting_ idea, but given the thought and work that Tolkien put into Middle Earth, there’s only one right interpretation of the history of Middle Earth, and it’s his. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-speculation-the-terrible-secret-of-tom-bombadil/666980/31 "2013-08-26T19:10:43Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > As always, I’d like to note that Tom Bombadil is the oldest living thing that still walks beneath the Sun in Middle Earth, which presumably means he’s Treebeard. I dunno. It’s entirely possible that he’s a total Outsider, the way Ungoliant was, but with a different nature. He may have relocated to the newly-minted Middle Earth before _anything_ inhabited it. That said, in light of this: > [@](#): > > This is how I see it. Perhaps the evil stuff even flourishes there because he doesn’t care about it, and no one else wants to interfere in his territory. I’ve always _really_ thought that Tom Bombadil represented Nature, and the “evil things” didn’t really concern him because, from his perspective, they aren’t evil. They’re just part of the fabric of reality. In the same way, we may be tempted to see a destructive hurricane or some hungry predator eviscerating a young, tender animal under an uncaring sun as evil, but they’re not. They’re neither good nor evil. They simply are what they are. We merely lack the proper perspective. Tom Bombadil has that perspective. Hell, he may BE that perspective. ---
**Author:** ![Sattua](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sattua/32/11906_2.png) [@Sattua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sattua)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-speculation-the-terrible-secret-of-tom-bombadil/666980/32 "2013-08-26T19:29:14Z")
I don’t know, if a spirit is pro-nature and against settlement and civilization, that does make it against hobbits and men, but doesn’t make it outright evil. Sauron’s variety of evil destroyed nature and life. Bombadil, as a spirit of nature, would be the polar opposite of them… though not on “our” side, either. ---
**Author:** ![Airk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de053/32.png) [@Airk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airk)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-speculation-the-terrible-secret-of-tom-bombadil/666980/33 "2013-08-26T20:10:09Z")
Yeah, no, I don’t think so. The fellow comes off as very clever, but he misrepresents several things and draws some false equivalencies, such as that “dangerous” is the same as “evil”. I mean, all we have to do to refute -that- poorly conceived idea is to go to Gandalf: > [@Gandalf the White](#): > > “And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord. And Aragorn is dangerous, and Legolas is dangerous. You are beset with dangers, Gimli son of Gloin; for you are dangerous yourself, in your own fashion. Certainly the forest of Fangorn is perilous - not least to those that are too ready with their axes; and Fangorn himself, he is perilous too; yet he is wise and kindly nonetheless.” And curiously, one of the very things he explains as dangerous but wise and kindly is a forest. Go figure. So this is a funny, crack-brained idea, but it’s a house of cards that doesn’t stand without glue. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-speculation-the-terrible-secret-of-tom-bombadil/666980/34 "2013-08-26T20:21:54Z")
I assumed when Gandalf said “Fangorn” he was referring to Treebeard. ---
**Author:** ![tullsterx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e9bcb4/32.png) [@tullsterx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tullsterx)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-speculation-the-terrible-secret-of-tom-bombadil/666980/35 "2013-08-26T20:27:59Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > I dig the interpretation, though I was a little taken aback at the assertion that Bombadil is “possibly the least liked” character in LotR. I always really liked him. I agree with this. And it seems clear to me that Bombadil is beyond Middle Earth notions of good and evil. Bombaldil is and has always been. He’s very Old Testament. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-speculation-the-terrible-secret-of-tom-bombadil/666980/36 "2013-08-26T20:37:50Z")
Fangorn is Treebeard and vice versa. The wikipedia article makes that clear enough even as it says Tolkein was aware of some confusion of the two. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-speculation-the-terrible-secret-of-tom-bombadil/666980/37 "2013-08-26T21:33:27Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Fangorn is Treebeard and vice versa. The wikipedia article makes that clear enough even as it says Tolkein was aware of some confusion of the two. I can’t find anything to back up the idea that Treebeard/Fangorn and Fangorn Forest are the same entity. Clearly they have a close link, perhaps like Celeborn and Galadriel with Lothlorien, but everything I’ve found seems to imply they are not one and the same. I’ll admit it’s a minor point one way or the other. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-speculation-the-terrible-secret-of-tom-bombadil/666980/38 "2013-08-26T21:40:35Z")
No, they are not the same thing. Fangorn is the name of the Ent, the oldest living thing in the forest named after him. Fangorn means ‘Tree Beard’. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2013, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-speculation-the-terrible-secret-of-tom-bombadil/666980/39 "2013-08-26T21:45:39Z")
Treebeard is the “oldest creature under the Sun”, which I interpret to mean that he was the first creature to arise after the first sunrise. Which is impressive to us, but not actually all that big a deal in Middle-Earth as a whole: Galadriel and Cirdan certainly predate the Sun, as do Gandalf, Sauron, the Balrog, and all the rest of the Maia, and probably a great many other elves we know. Bombadil, however, is not “oldest under the Sun”; he’s just plain “oldest”, with no qualification. ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2013, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-speculation-the-terrible-secret-of-tom-bombadil/666980/40 "2013-08-27T03:48:21Z")
> [@standingwave](#): > > I had that calendar! Yeah, hard to picture Goldberry as evil. Hashberry was more of a drugged out bimbo in Bored… At first Frito saw nothing amid the iridescent wallpaper and strobe candles but what appeared to be a heap of filthy cleaning rags. But then the pile spoke again: [INDENT] \*"Hither come and suck a pipe, \* > > - > > ``` > Turn thy brains to cheese and tripe!"* > > ``` > > And then, as the boggies squinted their smarting eyes, the heap stirred and sat up revealing itself to be an incredibly emaciated, hollow-eyed female. She looked at them for a second, muttered, “Like wow,” and fell forward in a catatonic stupor with a rattle of beads. > [/INDENT] I had that calendar too! And the crush on Goldberry to go with it. 🙂 I also have my original copy of Bored of the Rings. (tote up another one on the register, Jocko. ”Ching!”) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-speculation-the-terrible-secret-of-tom-bombadil/666980.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-speculation-the-terrible-secret-of-tom-bombadil/666980.md?page=3)