# LOTR: The good guys "use" the Ring. How? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 19, 2011, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-the-good-guys-use-the-ring-how/589530 "2011-07-19T01:37:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-the-good-guys-use-the-ring-how/589530/21 "2011-07-19T15:27:01Z")
In order to use the ring to dominate others, you have to train yourself to do so. Frodo was able to use the ring to dominate Gollum. He was a homespun hobbit who knew that using the ring would lead to disaster. Another man, like Boromir, would use the Ring to dominate others. And he would grow more and more comfortable with overthrowing the will of others and substituting his own. He woudl raise armies, make himself King of Gondor, bring neighboring countries under his overlordship, dishearten his enemies. And as his powers and abilities grew, he would become more and more of a Dark Lord himself. He wouldn’t be exactly equivalent to Sauron, but rather more like the Witch-King of Angmar, who was also once human. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-the-good-guys-use-the-ring-how/589530/22 "2011-07-19T15:28:57Z")
I’m not sure if anyone other than Sauron had a solid idea of what the ring could do. Even Saruman was more or less guessing/deducing. After thousands of years of legends and camp fire tales, it’s possible that the different groups (Rohirrim, Gondorians, the White Council) had different assumptions of the ring. The ring itself may mislead the wearer in order to get him accidentally killed, a-la Isildur. So what they _thought_ they could do might be whisperings from the ring itself, or based on legends that may have sprung up since the dawn of the third age. (Reading this: [One Ring | The One Wiki to Rule Them All | Fandom](http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/One_Ring) , it says that the elves did not tell the Numenoreans about the existance of the ring, even after Al-Pharazon had captured Sauron!) ---
**Author:** ![Crowbar\_of\_Irony\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f08c70/32.png) [@Crowbar\_of\_Irony\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crowbar_of_Irony_3)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-the-good-guys-use-the-ring-how/589530/23 "2011-07-19T15:42:03Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > In order to use the ring to dominate others, you have to train yourself to do so. Frodo was able to use the ring to dominate Gollum. He was a homespun hobbit who knew that using the ring would lead to disaster. > > Another man, like Boromir, would use the Ring to dominate others. And he would grow more and more comfortable with overthrowing the will of others and substituting his own. He woudl raise armies, make himself King of Gondor, bring neighboring countries under his overlordship, dishearten his enemies. And as his powers and abilities grew, he would become more and more of a Dark Lord himself. He wouldn’t be exactly equivalent to Sauron, but rather more like the Witch-King of Angmar, who was also once human. Would Boromir have enough time to bring together a force to halt Sauron’s offensive? ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-the-good-guys-use-the-ring-how/589530/24 "2011-07-19T18:17:22Z")
Toklein speaks of a “time of turmoil”, as the various leaders of the West contended with one another for the Ring, and for the eventual winner to seize the ring, and train himself in its use. Sauron would presumably take advantage of the confusion to strike, and to seize back the ring. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-the-good-guys-use-the-ring-how/589530/25 "2011-07-19T20:39:05Z")
> [@Crowbar\_of\_Irony\_3](#): > > I think it was mentioned in the book that it was Gandalf’s plan to fool Sauron into thinking Aragorn has the ring, and has overstretched himself when he led the assault on the Black Gate. Overconfidence is probably Sauron’s backup plan if someone else claimed the ring; that fellow will be so full of himself that Sauron can easily defeat him and claim the ring. A MacGuffin delivery service. > > So, if Denethor or Boromoir was to claim the Ring, I think that would happen. They dominate the will of their men to fight, had some initial successes and got so full of themselves that they marched into Mordor only to be ambushed or be betrayed by the Ring. After all, having the ring doesn’t grant invincibility. Islidur was slayed by arrows while wearing it. Yes. To quote Tolkien, _“it was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power”_. And again; if anyone actually mastered the Ring Sauron would lose power just as he did when it was destroyed, so the fact that that hadn’t happened told him no one had yet mastered the Ring. So it’s reasonable to believe that Sauron would have outright expected some would-be Ringlord to show himself long before they were actually ready. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-the-good-guys-use-the-ring-how/589530/26 "2011-07-19T20:44:09Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Frodo was able to use the ring to dominate Gollum. We was/did? ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-the-good-guys-use-the-ring-how/589530/27 "2011-07-19T22:00:05Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > We was/did? Good question, I don’t think he could directly. Frodo was able to get Gollum to make an oath on the ring, and it was that which bound him, not direct commands from Frodo. Galadriel warns Frodo not to attempt to try to use the ring, as it would destroy him. “Before you could use that power you would need to become far stronger, and to train your will to the domination of others”. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-the-good-guys-use-the-ring-how/589530/28 "2011-07-19T22:58:19Z")
I think that Frodo _did_ dominate Smeagol with the Ring, but Smeagol was the very definition of weak-willed, and already pretty much completely enslaved by the Ring. I don’t think that’s really a counterexample to Galadriel’s warning. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-the-good-guys-use-the-ring-how/589530/29 "2011-07-19T23:10:05Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I think that Frodo _did_ dominate Smeagol with the Ring, but Smeagol was the very definition of weak-willed, and already pretty much completely enslaved by the Ring. I don’t think that’s really a counterexample to Galadriel’s warning. Perhaps Frodo used Gollum’s longing for the ring to try to control him. And it turns out he wasn’t very successful at that. To actually “use the ring”, though, he’d have to be wearing it. I don’t recall Frodo ever interacting with Gollum while he (Frodo) was wearing the ring except at the very end. And even then, he didn’t do much controlling. ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-the-good-guys-use-the-ring-how/589530/30 "2011-07-20T09:57:11Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I think that Frodo _did_ dominate Smeagol with the Ring, but Smeagol was the very definition of weak-willed, and already pretty much completely enslaved by the Ring. Remember, Gollum’s oath was to serve the master of the ring. Oaths have real power in Arda, when a significant object or entity is invoked. As John Mace points out, Frodo would actually have to wear the ring to directly command Gollum. IIRC, a couple times he threatens to actually do this, saying he would force Gollum to choke himself on some fish bones. Frodo specifically says he would put on the ring in order to enfore this command. ---
**Author:** ![mac\_bolan00](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b3f665/32.png) [@mac\_bolan00](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mac_bolan00)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-the-good-guys-use-the-ring-how/589530/31 "2011-07-20T10:14:43Z")
strangely, i don’t recall frodo ever feeling the temptation to wield the ring. sam felt the urge but a stronger force held them back. for sam, it was his love for frodo. in the case of gandalf and galadriel, it was the very knowledge that it would destroy them. but what about saruman? how could a skilled maiar succumb? frodo had no great love for anyone besides bilbo. he was wise enough to understand elrond, gandalf, and galadriel (though galadriel was being manipulative at the mirror.) but then boromir was wise and learned too. i don’t know which valar made frodo say “i will take the ring, though i do not know the way.” but elrond sounded as though it was the greatest revolution of the age. ---
**Author:** ![Bartman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@Bartman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bartman)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-the-good-guys-use-the-ring-how/589530/32 "2011-07-20T13:24:16Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Yes. To quote Tolkien, _“it was part of the essential deceit of the Ring to fill minds with imaginations of supreme power”_. And again; if anyone actually mastered the Ring Sauron would lose power just as he did when it was destroyed, so the fact that that hadn’t happened told him no one had yet mastered the Ring. So it’s reasonable to believe that Sauron would have outright expected some would-be Ringlord to show himself long before they were actually ready. Interestingly we do know of one individual who actually tried to master the ring… and failed, Isildur. And I would guess him to be at least as strong as the members of the fellowship (excluding Gandalf of course). It is highly unlikely that Boromir would have been able to effectively use it. > [@](#): > > Elendur went to his father, who was standing dark and alone, as if lost in thought. “Atarinya,” he said, “what of the power that would cow these foul creatures and command them to obey you? Is it then of no avail?” > “Alas, it is not, senya. I cannot use it. I dread the pain of touching it. And I have not yet found the strength to bend it to my will. It needs one greater than I now know myself to be. My pride has fallen. It should go to the Keepers of the Three.” > -Unfinished Tales, The Disaster at Gladden Fields. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-the-good-guys-use-the-ring-how/589530.md?page=1)