# LOTR: The Two Towers Question (Open Spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 3, 2010, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-the-two-towers-question-open-spoilers/523492 "2010-01-03T06:31:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-the-two-towers-question-open-spoilers/523492/21 "2010-01-04T19:03:00Z")
Weren’t a huge percent of the population wiped out in Moria? ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-the-two-towers-question-open-spoilers/523492/22 "2010-01-04T19:07:34Z")
They were busy getting invaded by the goblins. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-the-two-towers-question-open-spoilers/523492/23 "2010-01-04T19:10:26Z")
I always assumed Sauron had other client armies on the field, to keep the Elves of Lorien, Mirkwood, and the Dwarves of the Iron Hills and Lonely Mountain busy. ---
**Author:** ![Runestar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/74df32/32.png) [@Runestar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Runestar)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-the-two-towers-question-open-spoilers/523492/24 "2010-01-04T19:57:45Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Where were the dwarves? Gimli was there for the action, but the dwarves seemed to pretty much stay out of the war. Even the elves showed up to help at Helmsdeep… The elves showing up at Helms Deep to help fight was a movie-only addition. In the books, it was strictly the men of Rohan (along with Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli) at Helm’s Deep. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-the-two-towers-question-open-spoilers/523492/25 "2010-01-04T20:04:35Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > Weren’t a huge percent of the population wiped out in Moria? The fall of Moria was ancient history, and many dwarves escaped it (or didn’t live there in the first place). The later Battle of Dimrill Dale, in which Thorin earned the name Oakenshield, certainly accounted for a lot of dwarves, and their numbers regrew slowly owing to having a large sex imbalance and, apparently, not a very strong desire to breed. The more recent events in Moria, the debris from which the Fellowship ran across, accounted for only a small colony, not the bulk of the dwarven population. But the dwarven population had been in steady decline since ages before. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-the-two-towers-question-open-spoilers/523492/26 "2010-01-04T20:40:51Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Gandalf finally figures out how to dps. I can’t add to the wonderful descriptions of the lore involved, but I do have to say that LOL’ed at work over that line. 😃 I wonder if he re-specced or just got his rotation straightened out… ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-the-two-towers-question-open-spoilers/523492/27 "2010-01-04T21:04:45Z")
Hi Oakminster - To your last question, in the books it is more clear that war has spread over a large area of Middle Earth. Elves were busy fighting near Lorien and up North near the Misty Mountains. In the northern battles the dwarves were engaged also. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-the-two-towers-question-open-spoilers/523492/28 "2010-01-04T21:13:02Z")
> [@well\_he\_s\_back](#): > > Hi Oakminster - To your last question, in the books it is more clear that war has spread over a large area of Middle Earth. Elves were busy fighting near Lorien and up North near the Misty Mountains. In the northern battles the dwarves were engaged also. Ahhh. I was thinking maybe the dwarves figured Gimli already had the orcs out numbered, what with only 10,000 against a sturdy dwarf. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-the-two-towers-question-open-spoilers/523492/29 "2010-01-04T21:15:18Z")
I like your humor Oakminster. Have you seen Return of the King yet? If not, please report back when you do. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-the-two-towers-question-open-spoilers/523492/30 "2010-01-04T21:24:29Z")
Yup. watched that last night. Another whole lotta movie, but entertaining. Strider went back to the hot chick with the pointy ears, instead of the equally hot Rowan Redhead. Gotta say Jackson greatly exaggerated the power of seige engines in the 2nd to last “Mother of All Battles”. One hit causing stone towers to explode/crumble? Musta used goblin engineers to build the things outta cardboard. Of course, he also seems to use magical disappearing horses in the last “Mother of All Battles”. And he’s got a ranger swinging a two-handed sword. Everybody knows melee rangers dual wield…and die early and often. Still say Gandalf needed at least another semester of mage school. Yeah, continual light looks good, but he really shoulda learned fireball, lightning bolt, stinking cloud, and magic missile. ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-the-two-towers-question-open-spoilers/523492/31 "2010-01-04T22:14:13Z")
I’m sure you know Gandalf predates all those D&D wizards, so why should he use their spells ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-the-two-towers-question-open-spoilers/523492/32 "2010-01-04T22:29:05Z")
Because otherwise, he’s a cheerleader in cloth armor, with 4-sided hit dice. Does have a nifty staff and sword, though. ---
**Author:** ![Sweet\_Raisin\_Danish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e47774/32.png) [@Sweet\_Raisin\_Danish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sweet_Raisin_Danish)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-the-two-towers-question-open-spoilers/523492/33 "2010-01-04T22:45:45Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Because otherwise, he’s a cheerleader in cloth armor, with 4-sided hit dice. Does have a nifty staff and sword, though. … and that’s all he was supposed to be. His instructions were to be a “cheerleader”, not a “lay-to-waster”. Doesn’t mean he didn’t know how to do that stuff, just that he refrained, staying true to his calling. The main thing he had giong for him against Sauron, et al, is that they didn’t believe that he wouldn’t go all fireball at any given moment, since it didn’t occur to them that someone would have a power and not use it. So Sauron thought him weak or overly cautious, not principled – but still had enough doubts about his power that he wouldn’t test him directly too much without the Ring to be sure. In the end, Gandalf’s team won without him having to go all D&D on the battlefield, so who are we to Monday-morning quarterback? Of course, he did have a few thousand years to practice his swordplay … ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-the-two-towers-question-open-spoilers/523492/34 "2010-01-04T22:49:13Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Because otherwise, he’s a cheerleader in cloth armor, with 4-sided hit dice. Does have a nifty staff and sword, though. Well, you have to understand who Gandalf really is … . He’s basically an incarnated angel. He was around at the beginning, back when Eru, the “God” of Middle-Earth, created the whole shebang out of nothing. He and the other wizards (Saruman, and three others that aren’t mentioned in the movies) were sent to Middle-Earth in human form to nudge things in the right direction at key moments. But in order to walk as men they had set aside the bulk of their powers and even most of their awareness of their true nature. Intellectually Gandalf “knows” he’s an incarnated angel, but he doesn’t have access to his memories of what he was before he took human form. Part of his mission is to use as little power as possible to help things along. The fight against Sauron is a fight that the men and elves and dwarves and hobbits have to win for themselves. So, yeah, he mostly is just a cheerleader – although he is occasionally allowed to turn up the dial if it’s an emergency. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-the-two-towers-question-open-spoilers/523492/35 "2010-01-04T22:53:03Z")
How many people died because Mr. Candyass Wizard Wannabe was “restrained”? Worse than that, he ninja looted that dark crystal ball thing. Harrumph. ---
**Author:** ![Sweet\_Raisin\_Danish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e47774/32.png) [@Sweet\_Raisin\_Danish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sweet_Raisin_Danish)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2010, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-the-two-towers-question-open-spoilers/523492/36 "2010-01-04T23:32:34Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > How many people died because Mr. Candyass Wizard Wannabe was “restrained”? Worse than that, he ninja looted that dark crystal ball thing. Harrumph. Yes, but how many people died because Saruman tried a more direct form of intervention – damned if you do and damned if you don’t if you ask me. As for the dark crystal ball thing – no ninja looting – Some dude threw it at him from three stories up!! And then he voluntarily gave it back to its rightful owner without even using it. I do agree that a Wizard from the Land Before Time should have a better lock-and-key system than simply rolling it up in a blanket, especially with that pipsqueak, nosy Gilligan-hobbit roaming around. That’s no better than the guy on the beach that shoves his wallet way up towards the front of his shoes while swimming – “No one will think to look there!!!” ($1 to Seinfeld). ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-the-two-towers-question-open-spoilers/523492/37 "2010-01-05T01:10:58Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > Well, you have to understand who Gandalf really is … . > > He’s basically an incarnated angel. He was around at the beginning, back when Eru, the “God” of Middle-Earth, created the whole shebang out of nothing. > > He and the other wizards (Saruman, and three others that aren’t mentioned in the movies) were sent to Middle-Earth in human form to nudge things in the right direction at key moments. But in order to walk as men they had set aside the bulk of their powers and even most of their awareness of their true nature. Intellectually Gandalf “knows” he’s an incarnated angel, but he doesn’t have access to his memories of what he was before he took human form. > > Part of his mission is to use as little power as possible to help things along. The fight against Sauron is a fight that the men and elves and dwarves and hobbits have to win for themselves. So, yeah, he mostly is just a cheerleader – although he is occasionally allowed to turn up the dial if it’s an emergency. What makes you think Gandalf has no access to memories of his years as Olorin in the West? He even specifically tells at least one person that he was known as Olorin in the undying lands. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-the-two-towers-question-open-spoilers/523492/38 "2010-01-05T01:23:15Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > What makes you think Gandalf has no access to memories of his years as Olorin in the West? He even specifically tells at least one person that he was known as Olorin in the undying lands. I meant his memories from during the song of Iluvator. If he could remember everything he would know the future in advance. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2010, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-the-two-towers-question-open-spoilers/523492/39 "2010-01-05T01:23:24Z")
Another correction: Radagast the Brown, another wizard, was mentioned in passing by Saruman in the movies. Although he didn’t appear on screen, Weta did an image for the Decipher collectible card game: [Tuckborough - The Thain's Book](http://www.tuckborough.net/images/radagast.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-the-two-towers-question-open-spoilers/523492/40 "2010-01-06T20:06:40Z")
> [@Runestar](#): > > The elves showing up at Helms Deep to help fight was a movie-only addition. In the books, it was strictly the men of Rohan (along with Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli) at Helm’s Deep. Not _quite_ true. There were two (count 'em) elves arriving with the Northern Rangers – Elladan and Elrohir, Elrond’s sons. This prompted Gimli to say (paraphrasing) “Geez, I shoulda sent off for some of _my_ relatives,” to which Legolas replied, “I as well, but they’e probably very busy anyway.” They and the Rangers accompanied Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli on the Paths of the Dead. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-the-two-towers-question-open-spoilers/523492.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-the-two-towers-question-open-spoilers/523492.md?page=3)