# LOTR: The Two Towers Question (Open Spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 3, 2010, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-the-two-towers-question-open-spoilers/523492 "2010-01-03T06:31:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-the-two-towers-question-open-spoilers/523492/41 "2010-01-07T16:24:18Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > I meant his memories from during the song of Iluvator. If he could remember everything he would know the future in advance. This, also, is incorrect. The “song” does not say what will be. It is a representation of what will be. The Vala certainly remember the song; their attempts in Arda are an effort to recreate the song in real terms. It’s just that you cannot always know exactly what a particular theme or motif will translate to in the real creation, nor can you know exactly what time things will happen. Thus, despite knowing from the song that the Children of Illuvatar would be created, they didn’t know for sure when that would happen, which allowed Melkor to get to the humans (and possibly the elves) first. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-the-two-towers-question-open-spoilers/523492/42 "2010-01-07T16:38:39Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > Thus, despite knowing from the song that the Children of Illuvatar would be created, they didn’t know for sure when that would happen, which allowed Melkor to get to the humans (and possibly the elves) first. He did get to the elves first (though not necessarily in the sense of kidnapping and twisting them into orcs (that’s always going to be a really nebulous “truth”, I think)), because he had the Dark Rider costume going in the best Primeval Scooby Doo tradition, trying to make them fear and distrust Oromë when he eventually did find them. That was probably part of the motivation of the Avari who stayed behind…distrust of Oromë and the Valar because of Melkor’s Dark Rider antics. ---
**Author:** ![Sweet\_Raisin\_Danish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e47774/32.png) [@Sweet\_Raisin\_Danish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sweet_Raisin_Danish)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-the-two-towers-question-open-spoilers/523492/43 "2010-01-07T17:13:43Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > He did get to the elves first (though not necessarily in the sense of kidnapping and twisting them into orcs (that’s always going to be a really nebulous “truth”, I think)), because he had the Dark Rider costume going in the best Primeval Scooby Doo tradition, trying to make them fear and distrust Oromë when he eventually did find them. That was probably part of the motivation of the Avari who stayed behind…distrust of Oromë and the Valar because of Melkor’s Dark Rider antics. “And I would have gotten away with it, too, if it wasn’t for you meddling Noldor…” ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-the-two-towers-question-open-spoilers/523492/44 "2010-01-07T17:55:54Z")
> [@DesertDog](#): > > Not _quite_ true. There were two (count 'em) elves arriving with the Northern Rangers – Elladan and Elrohir, Elrond’s sons. This prompted Gimli to say (paraphrasing) “Geez, I shoulda sent off for some of _my_ relatives,” to which Legolas replied, “I as well, but they’e probably very busy anyway.” They and the Rangers accompanied Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli on the Paths of the Dead. But they show up after Helm’s Deep and the palantir fiasco. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-the-two-towers-question-open-spoilers/523492/45 "2010-01-07T20:02:49Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > How many people died because Mr. Candyass Wizard Wannabe was “restrained”? None. It’s a fictionaly story and the restraint was a plot device. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2010, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-the-two-towers-question-open-spoilers/523492/46 "2010-01-07T23:52:37Z")
Really? Glad we got that straighten out then. ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-the-two-towers-question-open-spoilers/523492/47 "2010-01-08T01:19:59Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > None. It’s a fictionaly story and the restraint was a plot device. Blasphemer!! ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-the-two-towers-question-open-spoilers/523492/48 "2010-01-08T01:47:45Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > Really? Glad we got that straighten out then. +1 I’m sometimes amazed at the people who seem to look at a work of fiction or drama, especially one with LOTS of backstory, and only appear able to skim over the surface. **sqweels** , you are aware that we KNOW that LOTR isn’t real, right? That the events didn’t happen? Because we DO know that…but playing “the game” is fun. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-the-two-towers-question-open-spoilers/523492/49 "2010-01-08T21:33:25Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > But they show up after Helm’s Deep and the palantir fiasco. Crap. You’re right; damn movie’s clouded my memory of the book. Right after Gandalf and Pippin leave for Gondor the troop of Rohirrim are making their way back from Isengard when a group of horsemen come upon them from behind in the dark and they are challenged by Éomer . . . > [@JRR Tolkien](#): > > ‘Who rides in Rohan?’ > > The pursuers brought their steeds to a sudden stand. A silence followed; and then in the moonlight, a horseman could be seen dismounting and walking slowly forward. His hand showed white as he held it up, palm outward, in token of peace; but the king’s men gripped their weapons. At ten paces the man stopped. He was tall, a dark standing shadow. Then his clear voice rang out. > > ‘Rohan? Rohan did you say? That is a glad word. We seek the land in haste from long afar.’ > > ‘You have found it,’ said Éomer. ‘When you crossed the fords yonder you entered it. But it is the realm of Théoden the King. None ride here save by his leave. Who are you? And what is your haste?’ > > ‘Halbarad Dúnadan, Ranger of the North I am,’ cried the man. ‘We seek one Aragorn son of Arathorn, and we heard he was in Rohan.’ > > ‘And you have found him also!’ cried Aragorn. Giving his reins to Merry, he ran forward and embraced the newcomer. ‘Halbarad!’ he said. ‘Of all joys this is the least expected!’ Later . . . > [@](#): > > ‘They are a strange company, these newcomers.’ said Gimli. ‘Stout men and lordly they are, and the Riders of Rohan look almost as boys beside them; for they are grim men of face, worn like weathered rocks for the most part, even as Aragorn himself; and they are silent.’ > > ‘But even as Aragorn they are courteous, if they break their silence,’ said Legolas ‘And have you marked the bretheren Elladan and Elrohir? Less sombre is their gear than the others’, and they are fair and gallant as Elven-lords; and that is not to be wondered at in the sons of Elrond of Rivendell.’ The part I was remembering was in Hornburg just before the battle but I’ll not quote it here lest I get into trouble. ---
**Author:** ![capeo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@capeo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capeo)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-the-two-towers-question-open-spoilers/523492/50 "2010-01-08T21:57:20Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > In the book (ahem) there’s no law that has anything to do with the Ring, but it’s wartime, and strangers can’t go wandering about Gondor without permission, and if Faramir takes it on himself to make that decision and things go badly as a result, his ass gets nailed. “Things going badly” would normally mean enemy armed forces or spies, but he has to think seriously even about two harmless-looking hobbits, and that’s before he knows about the Ring. In the book Faramir is also portrayed as far more noble from the onset. He releases the hobbits after he guesses their burden, though tempted, and doesn’t drag them to Osgiliath which, aside from the fact that geographically this fabrication makes no sense and would have screwed up all the timing it’s particularly infuriating because of the scene where Frodo shows the ring to the Captain of the Nazgul. This is the exact same thing as showing the ring to Sauron. All the Nazgul would have been brought to bear to take the ring right then and the whole idea of Sauron believing the ring is in Minas Tirith is blown. It was a stupid, stupid change from the book. As stupid as making Frodo turn on Sam and the whole Warg attack with Aragorn falling off the cliff. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-the-two-towers-question-open-spoilers/523492/51 "2010-01-08T22:13:15Z")
> [@DesertDog](#): > > Crap. You’re right; damn movie’s clouded my memory of the book. Right after Gandalf and Pippin leave for Gondor the troop of Rohirrim are making their way back from Isengard when a group of horsemen come upon them from behind in the dark and they are challenged by Éomer . . .Later . . .The part I was remembering was in Hornburg just before the battle but I’ll not quote it here lest I get into trouble. Nicely done! You’re thinking of the talk just before the orcs fill the valley. They’re wishing for 100 dwarves or elves but agree that war likely marches on their own homes. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-the-two-towers-question-open-spoilers/523492/52 "2010-01-08T23:59:29Z")
> [@capeo](#): > > In the book Faramir is also portrayed as far more noble from the onset. He releases the hobbits after he guesses their burden, though tempted, and doesn’t drag them to Osgiliath which, aside from the fact that geographically this fabrication makes no sense and would have screwed up all the timing it’s particularly infuriating because of the scene where Frodo shows the ring to the Captain of the Nazgul. This is the exact same thing as showing the ring to Sauron. All the Nazgul would have been brought to bear to take the ring right then and the whole idea of Sauron believing the ring is in Minas Tirith is blown. It was a stupid, stupid change from the book. As stupid as making Frodo turn on Sam and the whole Warg attack with Aragorn falling off the cliff. Oh, hell, yes. (Apart from the bit about guessing - Sam blurts it out carelessly; Faramir earlier guessed there was something in the wind but wasn’t sure what.) Jackson did some great work, and the movies could have been infinitely worse, but he did take liberties. ---
**Author:** ![capeo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@capeo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capeo)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2010, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-the-two-towers-question-open-spoilers/523492/53 "2010-01-09T16:18:20Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Oh, hell, yes. (Apart from the bit about guessing - Sam blurts it out carelessly; Faramir earlier guessed there was something in the wind but wasn’t sure what.) Jackson did some great work, and the movies could have been infinitely worse, but he did take liberties. Yes, that’s right. I forgot. Sam gets a bit drunk doesn’t he and blurts it out? I haven’t read the books in quite a while. ---
**Author:** ![vifslan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f4b2a3/32.png) [@vifslan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vifslan)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-the-two-towers-question-open-spoilers/523492/54 "2010-01-11T14:50:17Z")
> [@capeo](#): > > Yes, that’s right. I forgot. Sam gets a bit drunk doesn’t he and blurts it out? I haven’t read the books in quite a while. I thought it was more like a slip after being plied with good country food, in pleasant company and with conversation on his favourite subjects like elves, Lothlorien and Galadriel. ---
**Author:** ![Airk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de053/32.png) [@Airk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airk)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-the-two-towers-question-open-spoilers/523492/55 "2010-01-11T15:05:34Z")
There was definitely wine involved as well. But yes, combination of all of the above. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-the-two-towers-question-open-spoilers/523492/56 "2010-01-11T15:53:39Z")
> [@capeo](#): > > In the book Faramir is also portrayed as far more noble from the onset. He releases the hobbits after he guesses their burden,\*\* though tempted\*\*, and doesn’t drag them to Osgiliath which, aside from the fact that geographically this fabrication makes no sense and would have screwed up all the timing it’s particularly infuriating because of the scene where Frodo shows the ring to the Captain of the Nazgul. This is the exact same thing as showing the ring to Sauron. All the Nazgul would have been brought to bear to take the ring right then and the whole idea of Sauron believing the ring is in Minas Tirith is blown. It was a stupid, stupid change from the book. As stupid as making Frodo turn on Sam and the whole Warg attack with Aragorn falling off the cliff. (bolding mine ) Faramir in the book was _never_ tempted to take or use the Ring of Power - [QUOTE=Faramir] I would not take this thing, if it lay by the highway. Not were Minas Tirith falling in ruin and I alone could save her, so, using the weapon of the Dark Lord for her good and my glory. No, I do not wish for such triumphs, Frodo son of Drogo. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Faramir] "Not if I found it on the highway would I take it I said. Even if I were such a man as to desire this thing, and even though I knew not clearly what this thing was when I spoke, still I should take these words as a vow, and be held by them. But I am not such a man. Or I am wise enough to know that there are some perils from which a man must flee. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-the-two-towers-question-open-spoilers/523492/57 "2010-01-11T17:57:26Z")
Tolkien once said in a letter that of all the characters in LOTR he was most like Faramir, although without his physical courage. ---
**Author:** ![capeo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@capeo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capeo)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-the-two-towers-question-open-spoilers/523492/58 "2010-01-11T18:07:43Z")
> [@simster](#): > > (bolding mine ) > > Faramir in the book was _never_ tempted to take or use the Ring of Power - Thanks. I’ve watched the movies so many times now it’s all bleeding together. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-the-two-towers-question-open-spoilers/523492/59 "2010-01-11T18:20:56Z")
> [@capeo](#): > > Thanks. I’ve watched the movies so many times now it’s all bleeding together. Specifically, as soon as Faramir realized it was Sauron’s Ring they were talking about, he said “Okay, don’t show me, don’t even mention it again in case it turns out I’m weaker than you - let’s set you on your way and give the nasty thing no chance to work its mischief”. Faramir was humble enough to know he shouldn’t even try to test his resolve. ---
**Author:** ![HubZilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ccd318/32.png) [@HubZilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HubZilla)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-the-two-towers-question-open-spoilers/523492/60 "2010-01-11T18:33:35Z")
At the end of TTT, why did Faramir say “At last, we understand one another, Frodo”. Okay, I get that he figured the ring was bad and needed to be destroyed. And Frodo must do it, without any help from his soldiers. How he got that watching Frodo nearly _give_ the ring to the Nazgul isn’t explained. But that’s not really my question. Why does he think Frodo understands _him_? What insight did Frodo see about how Faramir needed to impress his Dad? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-the-two-towers-question-open-spoilers/523492.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-the-two-towers-question-open-spoilers/523492.md?page=4)