# Lotr: was Tom Bobadil's speech nonsense, or a lost language? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 26, 2012, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-was-tom-bobadils-speech-nonsense-or-a-lost-language/645210 "2012-12-26T19:35:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Apocalypso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Apocalypso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apocalypso)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-was-tom-bobadils-speech-nonsense-or-a-lost-language/645210/1 "2012-12-26T19:35:06Z")
I always thought that Tom’s "_derry dol_"s and "_ring a ding dillo_"s were supposed to be nonsensical, meant to show Tom’s silliness and that the world wasn’t all dark and scary and full of evil things. Then on a recent re-reading this line caught my eye and made me wonder: > [@](#): > > Tom sang most of the time, but it was chiefly nonsense, or else perhaps a strange language unknown to the hobbits, an ancient language whose words were mainly those of wonder and delight. So is there anything in Tolkiens letters or writing to indicate that he’d made up Tom Bombadil’s language and given it a history like he did the others? Is there a primer on all these merry dols and what they mean? Tom does indicate, especially in the Barrow Downs and when he takes the hobbits close to the great road near Bree, that he knows much that has been lost. He seemed to know a great deal about that golden brooch that he picked out of the barrow to take to Goldberry “Fair was she that long ago wore this on her shoulder. Goldberry will wear it now, and we will not forget her!”. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-was-tom-bobadils-speech-nonsense-or-a-lost-language/645210/2 "2012-12-26T20:01:16Z")
JRRT most likely had no idea what Bombadil was saying, either. The good professor went on record as saying he didn’t know where TB came from or what he represented in the mythology. Apparently Bombadil was the name given to some sort of toy doll that the Tolkien kids enjoyed, and JRRT often had it tell stories and perform songs to them. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-was-tom-bobadils-speech-nonsense-or-a-lost-language/645210/3 "2012-12-26T20:10:27Z")
> [@](#): > > ‘And even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally).’ The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, No 144, dated 1954 ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-was-tom-bobadils-speech-nonsense-or-a-lost-language/645210/4 "2012-12-26T20:24:12Z")
Here’s a great discussion of Bombadil: [Who is Tom Bombadil?](http://www.cas.unt.edu/~hargrove/tombomb.html) ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-was-tom-bobadils-speech-nonsense-or-a-lost-language/645210/5 "2012-12-26T20:43:34Z")
Now that was very cool. Thanks Q. ---
**Author:** ![Maserschmidt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maserschmidt/32/18829_2.png) [@Maserschmidt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maserschmidt)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-was-tom-bobadils-speech-nonsense-or-a-lost-language/645210/6 "2012-12-26T20:49:36Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Now that was very cool. Thanks Q. Ibid. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-was-tom-bobadils-speech-nonsense-or-a-lost-language/645210/7 "2012-12-26T20:54:08Z")
> [@from linked essay](#): > > Tolkien was very protective of what he wrote, including his errors. When he found something miswritten in his manuscript, he was more likely to ponder, in terms of Middle-earth, how his characters came to make such an error, or what special significance this might have, than simply to correct it. So. Tolkein’s a fanwanker. ---
**Author:** ![Coriolanus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coriolanus/32/18769_2.png) [@Coriolanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coriolanus)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-was-tom-bobadils-speech-nonsense-or-a-lost-language/645210/8 "2012-12-26T22:00:37Z")
I rather like thinking of Tom as JRR himself. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2012, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-was-tom-bobadils-speech-nonsense-or-a-lost-language/645210/9 "2012-12-27T00:45:33Z")
> [@](#): > > He seemed to know a great deal about that golden brooch that he picked out of the barrow to take to Goldberry “Fair was she that long ago wore this on her shoulder. Goldberry will wear it now, and we will not forget her!”. Does this imply that he knew who specifically wore it, and knew that she was fair? Or is it just that, to Bombadil, _everything_ (and everyone) in the world is beautiful, and thus he’s confident that the previous owner was fair, even without knowing who she was? ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2012, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-was-tom-bobadils-speech-nonsense-or-a-lost-language/645210/10 "2012-12-27T00:48:50Z")
I have always blamed Tom Bombadil for the hippie’s embrace of LOTR. ---
**Author:** ![Apocalypso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Apocalypso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apocalypso)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2012, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-was-tom-bobadils-speech-nonsense-or-a-lost-language/645210/11 "2012-12-27T02:03:03Z")
I’m not asking anything about Tom himself, although Qadgop the Mercotan’s link is very interesting. I want to know if Tom Bombadil’s speech and the words and phrases he uses is supposed to be a part of some ancient language (perhaps from some of the first men to settle in Middle Earth) or something he just made up. I was trying to show that Tom made some comments to the hobbits that indicated that he was _very_ old, and told them some ancient stories, and even says “I was here in the beginning”. So it seems plausible that his speech is the last remant of some of the first men on ME, since his memory goes so far back. I was wondering if Tolkien ever said anything about _Tom’s speech itself_ that could indicate whether this theory is correct and there was once a whole country that spoke in Derry Dol and Ring a dollo’s. I find that image very amusing. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2012, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-was-tom-bobadils-speech-nonsense-or-a-lost-language/645210/12 "2012-12-27T02:42:43Z")
> [@Apocalypso](#): > > I was wondering if Tolkien ever said anything about _Tom’s speech itself_ that could indicate whether this theory is correct and there was once a whole country that spoke in Derry Dol and Ring a dollo’s. I’ve found no references to TB’s language, not even in the [Ardalambion](http://folk.uib.no/hnohf/) (one of the best sources for all things linguistic related to JRRT.) And TB would have been speaking even before the men arose for the first time, after the first rising of the sun in the West. And since JRRT did write about how it was the Avari that taught the first men to speak, I don’t think TB’s language (which would have pre-dated the elves also) would have been related to early Mannish. ---
**Author:** ![Apocalypso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Apocalypso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apocalypso)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2012, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-was-tom-bobadils-speech-nonsense-or-a-lost-language/645210/13 "2012-12-27T14:42:35Z")
Very informative links Qadgop… So it looks like Tolkien didn’t give any other hints to where Tom picked up his strange language. ok, a couple (or three) more Lotr questions: When Tom Bombadil is escorting the hobbits back to the great road they can see some ancient outlines, and Tom mentions that it was once the borders of an ancient kingdom, but doesn’t want to talk about it. What (and whose) kingdom was this? Also, who exactly is buried in the Barrow-Downs? The Cardolan prince? I was reading through some of the appendices and trying to track all the locations on my map to get a feel for the story. One place that kept popping up was Umbar, but I couldn’t find it on the map. Obviously the name has changed. So where was Umbar and what is it called now? Similar question about Gondolin. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2012, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-was-tom-bobadils-speech-nonsense-or-a-lost-language/645210/14 "2012-12-27T15:07:11Z")
> [@Apocalypso](#): > > When Tom Bombadil is escorting the hobbits back to the great road they can see some ancient outlines, and Tom mentions that it was once the borders of an ancient kingdom, but doesn’t want to talk about it. What (and whose) kingdom was this? Cardolan, which was formerly part of Arnor, the Numenorean realm in the north. Elendil was king of Arnor, and high king over Arnor and Gondor, back in the day. After his fall, Isildur assumed the title of high king over Arnor and Gondor, but after his death, Arnor was ruled by the descendants of Isildur, while Gondor was ruled by the descendants of his brother, Anarion. Eventually, there was a squabble over succession in Arnor, and the kingdom split into 3 smaller kingdoms, Arthedain, Rhudaur, and Cardolan. > [@](#): > > Also, who exactly is buried in the Barrow-Downs? The Cardolan prince? Probably > [@](#): > > Umbar, but I couldn’t find it on the map. [Umbar](http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20070222034331/lotr/images/d/db/UMBAR_location_map_in_middle_earth.PNG:). The red dot is on Umbar. It’s still Umbar. > [@](#): > > Similar question about Gondolin. Gondolin was in Beleriand, most of which fell beneath the waves back in the 1st age. So the maps of ME in the 3rd age won’t be showing it. Here’s a map of [northern Beleriand](http://corecanvas.s3.amazonaws.com/theonering-0188db0e/gallery/original/northern_beleriand.gif) with Gondor on it, southwest of Dorthonion, southeast of Mithrim. The Blue mountains on the far right of the map are the location of the 3rd age’s Grey Havens, which is where Frodo and Bilbo sailed into the West from at the end of ROTK. Hope that helps. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2012, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-was-tom-bobadils-speech-nonsense-or-a-lost-language/645210/15 "2012-12-27T15:26:16Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > Here’s a map of [northern Beleriand](http://corecanvas.s3.amazonaws.com/theonering-0188db0e/gallery/original/northern_beleriand.gif) with Gondor on it, Sorry, that should read **Gondolin** , not Gondor. ---
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2012, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-was-tom-bobadils-speech-nonsense-or-a-lost-language/645210/16 "2012-12-27T15:45:47Z")
[quote=“mlees, post:7, topic:645210”] So. x ---
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2012, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-was-tom-bobadils-speech-nonsense-or-a-lost-language/645210/17 "2012-12-27T15:50:27Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > So. > > Tolkein’s a fanwanker. Yeah, that’s one of the neat things about the Middle Earth books: the author cared about imaginary implied details as much as any obsessed fan. (But JRRT’s religious convictions make his literary obsession non-skeevy, because it’s apparent the wankery isn’t the primary focus of his life.) It works. ---
**Author:** ![control-z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@control-z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/control-z)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-was-tom-bobadils-speech-nonsense-or-a-lost-language/645210/18 "2012-12-28T21:43:04Z")
I was very disappointed that he and the Old Forest were not in the movie. ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-was-tom-bobadils-speech-nonsense-or-a-lost-language/645210/19 "2012-12-28T22:38:04Z")
Who is Tim Benzadine? ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2012, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-was-tom-bobadils-speech-nonsense-or-a-lost-language/645210/20 "2012-12-28T22:44:36Z")
Tim Benzadrine is the _Bored of the Rings_ parody of Tom Bombadill. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-was-tom-bobadils-speech-nonsense-or-a-lost-language/645210.md?page=2)