# Lotr: was Tom Bobadil's speech nonsense, or a lost language? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 26, 2012, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-was-tom-bobadils-speech-nonsense-or-a-lost-language/645210 "2012-12-26T19:35:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2013, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-was-tom-bobadils-speech-nonsense-or-a-lost-language/645210/41 "2013-01-02T23:25:06Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > Do I recall correctly it boiled down to: “He doesn’t recognize the ideas of good/evil”? So conceivable Sauron could just knock on his door and say, “Hey, I hear you have a ring that has this fire-letter inscription? Yeah, that’s mine. Can I have it?” and then the story gets a lot shorter? Or a lot longer. And a New Hope grows up to fight the Dark Lord… ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2013, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-was-tom-bobadils-speech-nonsense-or-a-lost-language/645210/42 "2013-01-02T23:32:40Z")
It just occurred to me that, in story, the answer is both. Consider. The conceit of LotR is that it’s a translation of a book written partly by Bilbo, mostly by Frodo, and a little by Sam, with a preface by Merry and various emendation by Gondorian scholars. Tom Bombadil appears only in the part of the book that Frodo wrote, and Frodo, wise though his manservant thought him to be, was not a linguist; nor did he have access to modern recording technology. Thus when he heard Bombadil speaking in that ancient language – one that perhaps had no connection even to Sindarin – it was Greek to him. He knew it WAS a language, but he couldn’t do more than attempt the broadest replication of a few syllables that he had heard. Now of course the actual songs throughout the book were all added after the fact by the Gondorian scholars, but as they never even met Bombadil, all they could do was put in a few of the same bits of silliness. And when Tolkien translated it, he just put down more nonsense. In short: Tom was speaking a language, but absent a time machine we’ll never know what it was, and not even the Greater Perfesser can help. (Quick, someone call the Doctor!) ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2013, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-was-tom-bobadils-speech-nonsense-or-a-lost-language/645210/43 "2013-01-02T23:37:40Z")
> [@Inigo\_Montoya](#): > > Do I recall correctly it boiled down to: “He doesn’t recognize the ideas of good/evil”? So conceivable Sauron could just knock on his door and say, “Hey, I hear you have a ring that has this fire-letter inscription? Yeah, that’s mine. Can I have it?” and then the story gets a lot shorter? More like Tom was so flighty that he would forget the ring was anything more than a bauble (and it was in fact a bauble to him), and he would lose it in short order. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-was-tom-bobadils-speech-nonsense-or-a-lost-language/645210/44 "2013-01-03T02:04:44Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > JRRT didn’t think so. The council of Elrond chapter in FOTR explains why TB would have made a lousy ringbearer. Well, in that the council is a bunch of hopeful guys who don’t know Tom very well, plus one naysayer who also doesn’t seem to know Tom very well. (Oh, sure, he’d really like to have a good long conversation with the guy, and near the end of the book is looking forward to finally doing it – but as of council-time, no dice.) [QUOTE=Inigo Monotoya] Do I recall correctly it boiled down to: “He doesn’t recognize the ideas of good/evil”? So conceivable Sauron could just knock on his door and say, “Hey, I hear you have a ring that has this fire-letter inscription? Yeah, that’s mine. Can I have it?” and then the story gets a lot shorter? [/QUOTE] The astonishing part is, if you stick to Tom’s actual appearances, he simply comes across as an entirely practical guy who asks perfectly relevant questions and equips our heroes with stuff they’ll need easy as telling 'em how to summon him for further assistance – and they of course _ **do** _ wind up needing him, and he of course comes through for the rescue. He doesn’t fail to recognize much of anything; instead, after telling 'em all about the Barrow-wights before supper, Tom turns the after-dinner conversation to his guests: _“He appeared to know much about them and all their families, and indeed to know much of all the history and doings of the Shire down from days hardly remembered among the hobbits themselves.”_ (And, after the rescue and the equipping, he gives 'em the pedigree of those gleaming weapons: _“these blades were forged many years ago by Men of Westernesse: they were foes of the Dark Lord, but they were overcome by the evil king of Carn Dûm in the Land of Angmar.”_ He then goes on to say rather a lot of sensible things about the Black Riders; it’s as if the dude knows every player in the game, y’know?) ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-was-tom-bobadils-speech-nonsense-or-a-lost-language/645210/45 "2013-01-03T02:16:44Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > Here’s a great discussion of Bombadil: [Who is Tom Bombadil?](http://www.cas.unt.edu/~hargrove/tombomb.html) Ayn Rand crossover fanfiction ? No thanks. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-was-tom-bobadils-speech-nonsense-or-a-lost-language/645210/46 "2013-01-03T04:50:55Z")
Apart from LOTR, I do recall some poems of Tolkein’s where Tom Bombadil features. One where he gets briefly “caught” by the “badger-folk.” There’s also one where a guy named “Tom, with his big boots on” comes across a troll gnawing a shinbone that he recognizes as his uncle’s. He protests. “I do not see why the likes of ye without askin’ leave should go makin’ free with the shank or shin of my father’s kin, so hand the old bone over!” “‘For a couple o’ pins,’ says the troll, and grins, ‘I’d eat thee too, and gnaw thy shins!’” Which he then tries to do, but Tom is too quick for him, gets behind him and kicks the troll in the ass. But the troll has the last laugh, for his flesh is hard as stone, and the kick leaves Tom “lasting lame.” Don’t know if that’s meant to be about Bombadil or not. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-was-tom-bobadils-speech-nonsense-or-a-lost-language/645210/47 "2013-01-03T04:56:26Z")
> [@Apocalypso](#): > > . . . there was once a whole country that spoke in Derry Dol and Ring a dollo’s. Yeah. The Rivendell Elves, as represented in _The Hobbit._ “Tra la la la la lee, way down in our valley!” The Elves in LOTR seem to have been heavily retconned to make them less silly and more serious. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-was-tom-bobadils-speech-nonsense-or-a-lost-language/645210/48 "2013-01-03T14:35:33Z")
> [@](#): > > There’s also one where a guy named “Tom, with his big boots on” comes across a troll gnawing a shinbone that he recognizes as his uncle’s. That one’s not about Bombadil, since it was written by Sam. It’s in the Lord of the Rings, when the party encounters the stoned trolls that Bilbo tried to burgle. ---
**Author:** ![Wakinyan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wakinyan/32/352_2.png) [@Wakinyan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wakinyan)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-was-tom-bobadils-speech-nonsense-or-a-lost-language/645210/49 "2013-01-03T16:08:16Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I think it was the right decision. In order to make the books into movies, it was necessary to compress them significantly. While I love Bombadil as much as the next fan, that segment was relatively easy to cut out without significant impact on any of the rest of the plot, which spared some other more integrated segment from cutting. Perhaps it didn’t have a significant impact, but one problem with cutting out Tom Bombadill is that for the audience it seems that Merry has an ordinary short sword, instead of a so called [barrow-blade](http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Barrow-blades). The nature of the blade, if you will, explains how the witch king could be killed at all. He was not killed by a play on words, as the movie goer is led to believe. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-was-tom-bobadils-speech-nonsense-or-a-lost-language/645210/50 "2013-01-03T16:21:09Z")
> [@Wakinyan](#): > > Perhaps it didn’t have a significant impact, but one problem with cutting out Tom Bombadill is that for the audience it seems that Merry has an ordinary short sword, instead of a so called [barrow-blade](http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Barrow-blades). The nature of the blade, if you will, explains how the witch king could be killed at all. He was not killed by a play on words, as the movie goer is led to believe. But in the movie, Merry and Pippin were given blades forged by the Noldor as a parting gift from Galadriel. Aragorn and company retrieved the hobbit’s blades from the burn pile at the edge of Fangord (in the book and movie) so the hobbits had them later. So, in the movie a blade of noldorin origin dispatched the witch king, not a work of the dunedain. If I had to choose a weapon with which to battle fell spirits, I’d pick a work of the Noldor over one of the Edain (who learned their meager eldritch skills from the Noldor.) 😉 ---
**Author:** ![clnilsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecccb3/32.png) [@clnilsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clnilsen)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-was-tom-bobadils-speech-nonsense-or-a-lost-language/645210/51 "2013-01-03T16:57:27Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > We know from [Sauron’s blog](http://www.sauronsblog.com/?p=322) that Tom Bombadil’s language hasn’t changed much since the first age: > 😉 > > [http://www.sauronsblog.com/?p=16](http://www.sauronsblog.com/?p=16) > > make that since before sun and moon Not to Thread hijack, but I loved reading Sauron’s Blog, but it appears to have been abandoned a long while back. Did it just get moved somewhere else that I missed? ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2013, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-was-tom-bobadils-speech-nonsense-or-a-lost-language/645210/52 "2013-01-03T17:03:59Z")
> [@clnilsen](#): > > Not to Thread hijack, but I loved reading Sauron’s Blog, but it appears to have been abandoned a long while back. Did it just get moved somewhere else that I missed? No idea. I miss it too. ☹ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-was-tom-bobadils-speech-nonsense-or-a-lost-language/645210.md?page=2)