# LotR "What If?" Questions (Probable Spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** middle-earth\ **Created:** [September 21, 2002, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-questions-probable-spoilers/128936 "2002-09-21T04:37:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Coriolanus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coriolanus/32/18769_2.png) [@Coriolanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coriolanus)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2002, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-questions-probable-spoilers/128936/41 "2002-09-25T17:39:22Z")
One incident regarding Moria/Balrog and the Ring is when a Big Orc Chieftain barges his way into a chamber where the Fellowship are, and he _shoves_ Boromir, Captain of Gondor, aside and nails Frodo right in the center of his chest with a spear. It _could_ be coincidental, and as the 'Rog hadn’t yet arrived on scene - quite possible there were no orders given. Heck, maybe Saruman was behind it. It was a curious incident. As to Sauron’s appearance - without the Ring he is unable to hold a corporeal form. ‘The Eye’ might be his chosen visage - it is used on Mordor’s livery (weapons and armour). Even with the Ring, he cannot appear fair. My reckoning is the Balrogs, in putting so much of their power into their might - also were unable to appear fair - as other Maia and Vala (excepting Morgoth) could. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2002, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-questions-probable-spoilers/128936/42 "2002-09-26T12:52:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by toadspittle \* > I believe Tolkien says that Sauron would be reduced to nothing more than a “spirit of malice” in the wilderness should the ring be destroyed . . . They’re just scary shadows now, that frighten kids and maybe make people lose their keys, or something. \*\* And that, boys and girls, is how Sauron ended up becoming the tooth fairy! Please ptell me that you get the reference. ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2002, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-questions-probable-spoilers/128936/43 "2002-09-26T19:07:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Corbomite \* > **As to Sauron’s appearance - without the Ring he is unable to hold a corporeal form.** Hmm. I wonder. There’s always that problematic quote by Gollum, where he mentions (regarding his torture in Mordor) that there are only four fingers on the black hand – but they are enough. But I suppose that Gollum, being so consumed by the ring, would be able to see even a non-corporeal Sauron, just as Frodo could see the ringwraiths, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2002, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-questions-probable-spoilers/128936/44 "2002-09-26T21:23:54Z")
I was under the impression that Sauron had achieved bodily form some time around The Hobbit, when he was trapaising around as the Legomancer. ---
**Author:** ![Coriolanus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coriolanus/32/18769_2.png) [@Coriolanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coriolanus)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2002, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-questions-probable-spoilers/128936/45 "2002-09-26T22:15:32Z")
Sauron’s minor-menacing as The Necromancer seems to have been practice for his eventual return to Mordor. During that time Barad-Dur was being rebuilt - a major feat for the Third Age - done by who knows what folk. That it went un-noticed was a big time intelligence failure on the part of Gondor and the Dunedain of the South. Also no one knew that it was Sauron till he went back to the Barad-dur which was basically unassailable. Oops. Sauron’s proximity to Middle Earth allowed him to gain much knowledge of the state of the Elven ring-bearers and to watch what Gandalf was up to. It also allowed him to corrupt Saruman - whose greatest feat was driving The Necromancer out of Mirkwood (and to the afore-mentioned brand new tower). Gandalf was part of all that too - he was dropping Goblin King, supporting regime changes that meant dropping fire-breathing dragons (nasty stuff) and restorying dwarven kingdoms. Corporeal or not - there’s no doubt about it - Sauron was about to whup Middle-Earth’s butt. So long as nobody wielded The One. Of course nobody would be crazy enough to think of destroying it… ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2002, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-questions-probable-spoilers/128936/46 "2002-09-26T23:31:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by partly\_warmer \* > Also, I feel a little shy about ascribing labels of “good” and “evil” to kings on account of asking for tribute, or even for being greedy. I wish my cousin would return “The Tolkien Letters”, for the reason I’m beginning to wonder, after this thread, at what point Tolkien converted to Catholicism, because these rather, er, black-and-white brushes condemning people for normal human faults is not IMHO, a very Catholic or religious stance. Tolkien’s mother converted to Catholicism in 1900, when Tolkien was 8, and the whole family worshiped as Catholics. Please also remember: these kings are fictional. No real kings were judged in the writing of this novel. 🙂 As to whether this is “a Catholic or religious stance”, I think Tolkien and his non-Catholic religious contemporaries would have thought so with total certainty, while also definitely holding that reality is rarely so black-and-white. I think many (perhaps most) modern Catholics and non-Catholics would agree. I think we’re heading into GD territory. ---
**Author:** ![Coriolanus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coriolanus/32/18769_2.png) [@Coriolanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coriolanus)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2002, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-questions-probable-spoilers/128936/47 "2002-09-26T23:53:33Z")
This thread started off like the dark pool outside Moria’s West Gate which was new and unknown to the entire Fellowship - including Strider/Aragorn and Gandalf (and Gimli and Elrond). Wow! We always knew Moria had an East Gate! Here’s a West Gate! Mell-fargin-on! The Fellowship got pelted with a blizzard and super-deep snowfall and assaulted by phantom scary wolves and real bats. They go down the mountain and - holy feanor - there’s no snow! That lake only looks scary. Ha ha - we’ve seen the worst of it. There’s no records or multi-tentacled aquatic beasts and at least six Balrogs are known to be dead. (I just wanted to ensure this thread doesn’t go to GD. As it’s utterly impossible to parody or satirize Biblical stuff.) What’s an Ark? ---
**Author:** ![partly\_warmer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bc8723/32.png) [@partly\_warmer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/partly_warmer)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2002, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-questions-probable-spoilers/128936/48 "2002-09-27T02:43:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rowrrbazzle \* > \*\*Tolkien’s mother converted to Catholicism in 1900, when Tolkien was 8, and the whole family worshiped as Catholics. > … > > As to whether this is “a Catholic or religious stance”, I think Tolkien and his non-Catholic religious contemporaries would have thought so with total certainty, while also definitely holding that reality is rarely so black-and-white…\*\* :You’re absolutely right about Tolkien being Catholic. I misremembered that both C.S. Lewis and Tolkien converted. Instead, it was Tolkien that converted Lewis. My question about whether the Numenorean kings were evil before taking the rings was in response to Joe\_Cool’s original comment about them being “bad guys”, 8 millions posts ago. I never saw LoTR as Catholic at all (but then, I’m the guy who doesn’t see much Christianity in C.S. Lewis’ Narnia series, either). Without getting into the whole thing of whether one is saved by faith, by good works, or by grace, it seems to me that a ring of power could not (in a Christian world) _force_ somebody to be evil. It might _encourage_ them. Of course Sauron would not care whether the men were evil before, only that they did his bidding after assuming one of the rings. **Corbomite** , I’ve never _quite_ understood why it makes a difference which part of the board a thread is moved to. Is this indicating in some way that the thread has fallen from the path of purity? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2002, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-questions-probable-spoilers/128936/49 "2002-09-27T03:13:18Z")
> [@](#): > > Without getting into the whole thing of whether one is saved by faith, by good works, or by grace, it seems to me that a ring of power could not (in a Christian world) _force_ somebody to be evil. Right, which is part of the reason why Bilbo managed to carry the thing for the better part of a century with no serious ill effects, while Smeagol killed his best friend the moment he laid eyes on it. Good can resist evil. But with time, it would get to be more and more difficult to resist evil, and eventually all of the Nine gave in. Remember, all of the Nine Kings accepted the rings willingly, and by that time, it was pretty clear that Sauron was not all goodness and light (he basically slaughtered the elves of Eregion to get them in the first place). Now, it may well be that some or all of the kings nonetheless intended to do good with them, but really, they oughtn’t to have accepted them in the first place. They knew who they were dealing with. ---
**Author:** ![Coriolanus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coriolanus/32/18769_2.png) [@Coriolanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coriolanus)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2002, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-questions-probable-spoilers/128936/50 "2002-09-27T10:07:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by partly\_warmer \* > **Corbomite** , I’ve never _quite_ understood why it makes a difference which part of the board a thread is moved to. Is this indicating in some way that the thread has fallen from the path of purity? \*\* I was kidding. Actually, it might not be very good SDMB etiquette on my part to post about forum placement. GD is of course a most venerable and prestigious forum. ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2002, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-questions-probable-spoilers/128936/51 "2002-09-27T14:52:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by partly\_warmer \* > \*\*Also, I feel a little shy about ascribing labels of “good” and “evil” to kings on account of asking for tribute, or even for being greedy. I wish my cousin would return “The Tolkien Letters”, for the reason I’m beginning to wonder, after this thread, at what point Tolkien converted to Catholicism, because these rather, er, black-and-white brushes condemning people for normal human faults is not IMHO, a very Catholic or religious stance. \*\* Tolkien is actually extremely forgiving when it comes to these matters, whether the failings belong to humans, elves, or even Sauron. Here’s a telling footnote that I just read in Unfinished Tales: > [@](#): > > In a letter written in September 1954 my father said: "At the beginning of the Second Age he [Sauron] was still beautiful to look at, or could still assume a beautiful visible shape– **and was not indeed wholly evil, not unless all ‘reformers’ who want to hurry up with ‘reconstruction’ and ‘reorganization’ are wholly evil, even before pride and the lust to exert their will eat them up. …** ---
**Author:** ![Threadkiller](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/aca169/32.png) [@Threadkiller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Threadkiller)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2002, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-questions-probable-spoilers/128936/52 "2002-09-27T15:21:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by partly\_warmer \* > You’re absolutely right about Tolkien being Catholic. I misremembered that both C.S. Lewis and Tolkien converted. Instead, it was Tolkien that converted Lewis. From [this site](http://cslewis.drzeus.net/bio/outline.html) On C.S. Lewis. > [@](#): > > 28 September 1931: Lewis became a Christian: One evening in September, Lewis had a long talk on Christianity with J.R.R. Tolkien (a devout Roman Catholic) and Hugo Dyson. That evening’s discussion was important in bringing about the following day’s event that Lewis recorded in Surprised by Joy: “When we [Warnie and Jack] set out [by motorcycle to the Whipsnade Zoo] I did not believe that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and when we reached the zoo I did.” [J.R.R. Tolkien: A Biography](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0618057021/qid=1033139108/sr=2-2/002-2819879-9299245?v=glance) states that Tolkien was less than pleased that Lewis chose to return to the Anglican Church of his youth rather than choose Catholicism. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-questions-probable-spoilers/128936.md?page=2)