# LOTR - What if Shelob had killed Frodo? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 20, 2012, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-shelob-had-killed-frodo/613433 "2012-02-20T17:36:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2012, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-shelob-had-killed-frodo/613433/21 "2012-02-20T22:18:31Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Sure, the Ring _tried_ to tempt Sam, and it worked with what it had available, but Sam was able to immediately recognize the temptation as absurd. The Ring wasn’t able to offer anything Sam wanted, just something that vaguely superficially resembled something that Sam wanted. I think if you read the passage it’s clear that Sam is truly tempted by the ring’s visions, even while he rejects them out of loyalty to Frodo and a sense of realism. The book calls it “an hour of trial”, which would not be the case if Sam did not desire what the ring offered. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-shelob-had-killed-frodo/613433/22 "2012-02-21T00:09:21Z")
Additionally, you can’t say that Sam’s initial rejection of that was the only time he’d be tempted, or even that it would be the _strongest_ temptation. If anything, Sam would have been dogged by Gollum on his way to Mt. Doom, and Sam would have kept going if only to prevent Gollum from acquiring the Ring. ---
**Author:** ![Saltire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saltire/32/553_2.png) [@Saltire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saltire)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-shelob-had-killed-frodo/613433/23 "2012-02-21T01:19:07Z")
Another thing that would work in Sam’s favor is that he’d never worn the ring. He hung it around his neck, but never on his finger. That might have kept the ring from taking full control of him. ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-shelob-had-killed-frodo/613433/24 "2012-02-21T01:24:49Z")
> [@Saltire](#): > > Another thing that would work in Sam’s favor is that he’d never worn the ring. He hung it around his neck, but never on his finger. That might have kept the ring from taking full control of him. Actually, he did; when the orcs came down the passage and took the unconscious Frodo prisoner. The ring let him understand what the orcs were saying. ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-shelob-had-killed-frodo/613433/25 "2012-02-21T01:45:27Z")
Sorry for double post; I just wanted to add that I’ve been rereading the series along with the volumes of History of Middle Earth that deal with LoTR. There are some quite interesting plot turns that Tolkien sketched out and then rejected; one was that Frodo was in fact killed. Unfortunately for the speculators’ sake, it was only in a very early outline, with few details, and he abandoned that idea before figuring out how the quest would continue. Fascinating books, the HoME books. It’s like reading Lord of the Rings as written in an alternate universe; I’m amazed at how late certain plot points came into the story. He had written past Pippin and Gandalf’s arrival in Minas Tirith, and yet the sketched plotline still had Aragorn and Eowyn as a potential love story; Arwen didn’t exist yet, though her brothers had gotten a mention. ---
**Author:** ![standingwave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@standingwave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/standingwave)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-shelob-had-killed-frodo/613433/26 "2012-02-21T02:20:22Z")
> [@Saltire](#): > > Another thing that would work in Sam’s favor is that he’d never worn the ring. He hung it around his neck, but never on his finger. That might have kept the ring from taking full control of him. Is this a movie thread or a book thread because in the book, Sam did wear the ring to avoid detection by the orcs. _ **“All things around him now were not dark but vague; while he himself was there in a grey hazy world, alone, like a small black solid rock. \<… \>He did not feel invisible at all, but horribly and uniquely visible; and he knew that somewhere an Eye was searching for him.”** _ ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-shelob-had-killed-frodo/613433/27 "2012-02-21T02:29:53Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > And it is notable that he alone of all beings of Middle-Earth was able to give up the Ring freely and without coercion, something that the Wise would have thought impossible. What about Tom Bombadil? He didn’t seem too impressed with the ring. Or do you not count him as being “of Middle-Earth”? (I can actually see that argument being made, actually.) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-shelob-had-killed-frodo/613433/28 "2012-02-21T02:48:43Z")
I wasn’t actually thinking about him, but I think it’s pretty safe to say that Bombadil shouldn’t really be counted as _anything_. ---
**Author:** ![Morgyn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morgyn/32/3041_2.png) [@Morgyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgyn)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-shelob-had-killed-frodo/613433/29 "2012-02-21T04:46:27Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I wasn’t actually thinking about him, but I think it’s pretty safe to say that Bombadil shouldn’t really be counted as _anything_. Hey, now! If it weren’t for Bombadil, Merry would not have had the dagger he stabbed the Witch King with. That’s pretty important. I can’t be the only one who liked Bombadil and Goldberry, can I? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-shelob-had-killed-frodo/613433/30 "2012-02-21T06:02:45Z")
> [@Morgyn](#): > > Hey, now! > > If it weren’t for Bombadil, Merry would not have had the dagger he stabbed the Witch King with. That’s pretty important. > > I can’t be the only one who liked Bombadil and Goldberry, can I? I’ve grown to like it. The story is about story-telling, and Bombadil is the very early story-telling to small children that enables us to deal with monsters, learn that they they can be defeated and gives us the weapons to deal with the more mature stories that also have evils that need to be defeated by mastering ourselves. The LOTR is that more mature story that has the message that even if we cannot personally defeat the evil, that if we do everything for that end, then Providence will defeat that great evil, even if we don’t get to enjoy it. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-shelob-had-killed-frodo/613433/31 "2012-02-21T06:05:40Z")
I didn’t mean to imply that I didn’t like Bombadil-- I do. I just meant that he defies any sort of categorization. ---
**Author:** ![Saltire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saltire/32/553_2.png) [@Saltire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saltire)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-shelob-had-killed-frodo/613433/32 "2012-02-21T06:12:36Z")
I really have to stop posting in Tolkien threads, or reread the books more often. I always misremember the thing I bring up. ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-shelob-had-killed-frodo/613433/33 "2012-02-21T09:03:29Z")
> [@Alka\_Seltzer](#): > > It’s the good master/dutiful servant relationship, which seems rather odd to us. Many British people of Tolkien’s era really did think like that. Despite being a lifelong supporter of the labour party, my grandfather has a deferential attitude to those he perceives to be his social betters. That’s hardly unusual, since there’s nothing in the Labour Party’s practices which makes it any more or less egalitarian than any other major Party in Britain; they even dropped the principle of social and economic egalitarianism with the 1993 rescindment of Clause IV of their constitution. > [@Dendarii Dame](#): > > How about Shelob tossing it into Mt. Doom? Or would she have become “Shelob of the seven legs?” I know you meant this as a joke, but this does raise an interesting question: What if Shelob had killed off all three halflings (Frodo, Sam, and Gollum)? What would have become of the ring then? Aragorn, Gandalf & co. had no idea of Frodo’s whereabouts, and so wouldn’t know what had happened to him or where to look to recover it. Sauron too was in the dark. Would he have had any means of divining its presence? Would Shelob have made any use of the ring, or would it have lain undisturbed in her lair for the next thousand years? ---
**Author:** ![si\_blakely](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@si\_blakely](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/si_blakely)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-shelob-had-killed-frodo/613433/34 "2012-02-21T10:24:04Z")
> [@standingwave](#): > > As it was, it was simple fortune that destroyed the ring. In the book anyway, Gollum takes the ring and while dancing and gloating, simply steps off the ledge by accident. Without Gollum, the ring wouldn’t have been destroyed. I have always contended that the Ring is the author of it’s own destruction. On the path to the Crack of Doom, when Gollum attacks, Frodo uses the power of the ring to dominate him, and states “If you (Gollum) touch me again, you shall be cast yourself into the fire”. The surrounding text indicates to me that the command issues from the Ring itself, not Frodo. The Ring has pronounced it’s own doom, and the rest is inevitable. The Ring was never passive, but it was _elemental_ - it could not forsee the results of its own actions. It fell from the hand of Isildur, betraying him to the Orcs, and lay in the waters of the Gladden Fields for millennia. It claimed Smeagol, but was hidden under the Misty Mountains for centuries. It transferred to Bilbo, and lay in the Shire for decades. It was fitting that the Ring was the author of its own destruction. Oh, and Bilbo gave up the Ring of his own volition (with just a bit of encouragement from Gandalf). Hobbits wore the Ring lightly, because they understood their own place in the world and did not desire power. Sam would have tossed the Ring without a second thought. Si ---
**Author:** ![si\_blakely](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@si\_blakely](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/si_blakely)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-shelob-had-killed-frodo/613433/35 "2012-02-21T10:34:37Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > I know you meant this as a joke, but this does raise an interesting question: What if Shelob had killed off all three halflings (Frodo, Sam, and Gollum)? What would have become of the ring then? Aragorn, Gandalf & co. had no idea of Frodo’s whereabouts, and so wouldn’t know what had happened to him or where to look to recover it. Sauron too was in the dark. Would he have had any means of divining its presence? Would Shelob have made any use of the ring, or would it have lain undisturbed in her lair for the next thousand years? Shelob would not have killed Gollum - even a spawn of Ungoliant has some standards. She could not use or comprehend the Ring - she is evil, but it is a cunning, animal evil that is dedicated to sating hunger. Power of the sort the Ring offers holds no attraction to her. The Ring would be found, though. Sauron considered Shelob his _pet_, and if the Ring was in her lair he would eventually find it (via Gollum or a wandering Orc). Si ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-shelob-had-killed-frodo/613433/36 "2012-02-21T11:15:36Z")
> [@Jenaroph](#): > > The ring let him understand what the orcs were saying. I always thought the orcs were speaking debased Westron. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-shelob-had-killed-frodo/613433/37 "2012-02-21T11:50:47Z")
> [@Death\_of\_Rats](#): > > I disagree, I think Sam is the only character presented in the books that _could_ do that. Sam only wanted two things, to serve his friend and master, Frodo and to settle down to a nice Hobbit life with Rosie Cotton. He was the one character that the ring had nothing to offer. All of the others who come into contact with the ring are after power or adventure or riches. None of those thing appealed to Sam. > > The downside for Sam, is that he is someone that the ring would have done its damnedest to get away from at the first opportunity. > [@Munch](#): > > Well that’s false. I don’t have the books in front of me, but I remember a specific passage where Sam has a vision of himself wielding the Ring, and he’s master of a garden paradise. No one’s immune. I was just coming in to mention this. Though the idea of the garden paradise is really compelling compared to the stuff they were going through. I could see that being really tempting to Sam. > [@Munch](#): > > Additionally, you can’t say that Sam’s initial rejection of that was the only time he’d be tempted, or even that it would be the _strongest_ temptation. > > If anything, Sam would have been dogged by Gollum on his way to Mt. Doom, and Sam would have kept going if only to prevent Gollum from acquiring the Ring. He actively hated Gollum. I could see him taking Sting and killing Gollum in the right situations. > [@psychonaut](#): > > What if Shelob had killed off all three halflings (Frodo, Sam, and Gollum)? What would have become of the ring then? Aragorn, Gandalf & co. had no idea of Frodo’s whereabouts, and so wouldn’t know what had happened to him or where to look to recover it. Sauron too was in the dark. Would he have had any means of divining its presence? Would Shelob have made any use of the ring, or would it have lain undisturbed in her lair for the next thousand years? > [@si\_blakely](#): > > Shelob would not have killed Gollum - even a spawn of Ungoliant has some standards. > > She could not use or comprehend the Ring - she is evil, but it is a cunning, animal evil that is dedicated to sating hunger. Power of the sort the Ring offers holds no attraction to her. The Ring would be found, though. Sauron considered Shelob his _pet_, and if the Ring was in her lair he would eventually find it (via Gollum or a wandering Orc). > > Si I thought that Gollum and Shelob had a sort of understanding, he would bring her prey, wait for her to suck it dry then he would loot the mummies? I seem to remember something about that in the book. I need to finish my current re-read of it =) ---
**Author:** ![si\_blakely](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@si\_blakely](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/si_blakely)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-shelob-had-killed-frodo/613433/38 "2012-02-21T11:58:35Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > I thought that Gollum and Shelob had a sort of understanding, he would bring her prey, wait for her to suck it dry then he would loot the mummies? I seem to remember something about that in the book. I need to finish my current re-read of it =) That is the case - the orcs call Gollum “Her Sneak”, and he had ingratiated himself to her. So he would be safe from that point of view. But Shelob had obviously caught Gollum initially, and recognised his petty evil, and his value at that point was obviously worth more to Shelob than his value to her as food. Si ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-shelob-had-killed-frodo/613433/39 "2012-02-21T12:05:48Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > I thought that Gollum and Shelob had a sort of understanding, he would bring her prey, wait for her to suck it dry then he would loot the mummies? Yes, that’s right. To make it more plausible, then, assume that Frodo and/or Sam had realized that Gollum led them into a trap, killed him in a struggle to escape, and then both succumbed to Shelob. > [@si\_blakely](#): > > Sauron considered Shelob his pet, and if the Ring was in her lair he would eventually find it (via Gollum or a wandering Orc). Sauron may have considered her his pet, but I don’t think the feeling was mutual. Would Shelob have just let Sauron’s minions waltz into her lair to rifle through the corpses of her victims? ---
**Author:** ![Tapiotar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3be4f8/32.png) [@Tapiotar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapiotar)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-shelob-had-killed-frodo/613433/40 "2012-02-21T12:59:26Z")
> [@si\_blakely](#): > > I have always contended that the Ring is the author of it’s own destruction. This is an interesting idea, and it would fit in with the larger themes of evil ultimately undoing itself through its own destructive excess, and with the themes of providence and grace. I don’t necessarily agree, but you’ve given me something to think about. Certainly, the pronouncement that Gollum would be cast into the Fire of Doom if he touched Frodo again – which I do think came from Frodo – was in the nature of a prophecy or a curse, and determined the end. Frodo may have unknowingly said it as a safeguard for himself, since, by that time, he probably knew he would no longer have the strength of will to throw the damned thing into the fire. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-shelob-had-killed-frodo/613433.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-shelob-had-killed-frodo/613433.md?page=3)