# LOTR - What if Shelob had killed Frodo? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 20, 2012, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-shelob-had-killed-frodo/613433 "2012-02-20T17:36:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Tapiotar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3be4f8/32.png) [@Tapiotar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapiotar)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-shelob-had-killed-frodo/613433/41 "2012-02-21T13:02:39Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > I was just coming in to mention this. Though the idea of the garden paradise is really compelling compared to the stuff they were going through. I could see that being really tempting to Sam. > He actively hated Gollum. I could see him taking Sting and killing Gollum in the right situations. This would have corrupted Sam very quickly. He would have been killing out of hatred, and hatred corrupts. Sam’s virtue lay in his humilty, and, once he lost it, he would lose all resistance to evil. ---
**Author:** ![si\_blakely](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@si\_blakely](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/si_blakely)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-shelob-had-killed-frodo/613433/42 "2012-02-21T13:24:41Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > Yes, that’s right. To make it more plausible, then, assume that Frodo and/or Sam had realized that Gollum led them into a trap, killed him in a struggle to escape, and then both succumbed to Shelob.Sauron may have considered her his pet, but I don’t think the feeling was mutual. Would Shelob have just let Sauron’s minions waltz into her lair to rifle through the corpses of her victims? My cat (when I had one) thinks I am her pet, and doesn’t want me to take her to the vet. That is why I had some thick leather gloves and a cat cage. Shelob may have resisted Sauron, but she could not prevent him from doing whatever he wanted. And if he fed her… Si ---
**Author:** ![KKKK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/48db29/32.png) [@KKKK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KKKK)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-shelob-had-killed-frodo/613433/43 "2012-02-21T13:31:39Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > Yes, that’s right. To make it more plausible, then, assume that Frodo and/or Sam had realized that Gollum led them into a trap, killed him in a struggle to escape, and then both succumbed to Shelob.Sauron may have considered her his pet, but I don’t think the feeling was mutual. Would Shelob have just let Sauron’s minions waltz into her lair to rifle through the corpses of her victims? I guess if Sauron was focussing all his mental power on finding the ring, he might have been able to locate it even in Shelob’s cave. And Shelob could probably stop the orcs, but I doubt she could face a combined attack from eight Nazgul. ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-shelob-had-killed-frodo/613433/44 "2012-02-21T14:16:54Z")
> [@KKKK](#): > > I guess if Sauron was focussing all his mental power on finding the ring, he might have been able to locate it even in Shelob’s cave. And Shelob could probably stop the orcs, but I doubt she could face a combined attack from eight Nazgul. Why not? Her nature was never explicitly revealed, but it is known for certain that she is ancient—probably even older than Sauron—and it is likely that she was a Maia like him. It’s therefore well within the realm of possibility that her power is equal to, or even greater than, Sauron and his minions. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-shelob-had-killed-frodo/613433/45 "2012-02-21T14:23:02Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > and it is likely that she was a Maia like him. I’ve only read it a few times, I am no authority, but where do you get that? ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-shelob-had-killed-frodo/613433/46 "2012-02-21T14:25:44Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > Why not? Her nature was never explicitly revealed, but it is known for certain that she is ancient—probably even older than Sauron—and it is likely that she was a Maia like him. It’s therefore well within the realm of possibility that her power is equal to, or even greater than, Sauron and his minions. And yet Sam killed her with little problem. I don’t have any doubt that Shelob would fall to a concerted attack, especially if any Nazgul were involved. ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-shelob-had-killed-frodo/613433/47 "2012-02-21T14:29:31Z")
> [@si\_blakely](#): > > She could not use or comprehend the Ring - she is evil, but it is a cunning, animal evil that is dedicated to sating hunger. Power of the sort the Ring offers holds no attraction to her. I wonder if Shelob might have consumed the ring, much as Ungoliant wanted to consume the silmarils. > [@psychonaut](#): > > Why not? Her nature was never explicitly revealed, but it is known for certain that she is ancient—probably even older than Sauron—and it is likely that she was a Maia like him. Shelob was the last remaining child of [Ungoliant](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ungoliant). It’s not quite clear what Ungoliant was, but she was very potent, and able to trap Melkor in her webs. > [@Munch](#): > > And yet Sam killed her with little problem. I don’t have any doubt that Shelob would fall to a concerted attack, especially if any Nazgul were involved. Sam did not kill Shelob, she crawled away. The book deliberately leaves her fate unclear, whether she recovered from her wounds or not. ---
**Author:** ![si\_blakely](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@si\_blakely](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/si_blakely)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-shelob-had-killed-frodo/613433/48 "2012-02-21T14:34:05Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > Why not? Her nature was never explicitly revealed, but it is known for certain that she is ancient—probably even older than Sauron—and it is likely that she was a Maia like him. It’s therefore well within the realm of possibility that her power is equal to, or even greater than, Sauron and his minions. You might claim that about Ungoliant (from whom Shelob was descended), but Shelob was just the last surviving spawn (and older than Barad-dur) from that monster. Heck, Sam would have done for her if he had a longer sword. She could not resist Sauron or the Nazgul, or even a large group of Orcs. Si ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-shelob-had-killed-frodo/613433/49 "2012-02-21T14:40:45Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > I’ve only read it a few times, I am no authority, but where do you get that? There’s no authority; it’s just speculation. As with Tom Bombadil, Tolkien never indicated Shelob and Ungoliants’ nature, neither in his books nor in his unpublished manuscripts nor in his correspondence. All he writes of Shelob is that she’s the spawn of Ungoliant and that she is very, very old. Fans have long speculated that Ungoliant was of the Maiar, and therefore Shelob was as well. You can find lengthy discussions on the topic on (for example) rec.arts.books.tolkien. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-shelob-had-killed-frodo/613433/50 "2012-02-21T14:43:00Z")
Thanks, Psychonaut. ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-shelob-had-killed-frodo/613433/51 "2012-02-21T14:44:36Z")
> [@si\_blakely](#): > > Heck, Sam would have done for her if he had a longer sword. I very much doubt that. Tolkien likens the wound Sam gave her to a mere pinprick. Merely increasing the length of his weapon by a few inches would not have made much of a difference. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-shelob-had-killed-frodo/613433/52 "2012-02-21T14:50:06Z")
Funny how I have thought about Tom Bombadil’s classification, but not about Ungoliant and Shelob. They, to me, were obviously just _monsters_ who were not Maia or Vala. Shelob, especially. I don’t think Maia can reproduce and make more Maia! Shelob to me is obviously just a monster. That said, since their “parents” did battle it out on fairly even terms, it’s possible that if Shelob lures him to his lair, she might duke it out with Sauron if she could utilize the powers of the ring (imagine an invisible, strong Shelob battling Sauron in her lair. I fanwank away the fact that Sauron can see the ring by saying that the Ring wants to stay with Shelob and so is hiding itself from Sauron.) ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-shelob-had-killed-frodo/613433/53 "2012-02-21T14:50:36Z")
> [@Alka\_Seltzer](#): > > Sam did not kill Shelob, she crawled away. The book deliberately leaves her fate unclear, whether she recovered from her wounds or not. I had a feeling that was wrong once I hit submit. Either way, Sam was able to seriously wound her and send her into retreat. A platoon of orcs would certainly be even more effective, if even to set up a perimeter for her to be unable to escape from her own lair. ---
**Author:** ![si\_blakely](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@si\_blakely](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/si_blakely)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-shelob-had-killed-frodo/613433/54 "2012-02-21T15:00:42Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > I very much doubt that. Tolkien likens the wound Sam gave her to a mere pinprick. Merely increasing the length of his weapon by a few inches would not have made much of a difference. _Sting_ was an elvish knife or dagger - a short sword to a Hobbit. A blade of the quality of Glamdring or Orcrist is of the order of **feet** longer. That would be more than a pin-prick, and could easily have been lethal. I agree that Ungoliant was probably some sort of Maiar, and that by draining the sap of the Trees of Valinor was boosted to unimaginable power (to trap even Melkor). But while Shelob inherited vast evil from Ungoliant, it seems clear to me that she had faded over the millennia, and (while still evil) was a giant beast but not a force of nature (certainly not in the way the Balrog still was). My opinion, naturally. Si ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-shelob-had-killed-frodo/613433/55 "2012-02-21T15:02:45Z")
> [@si\_blakely](#): > > The Ring was never passive, but it was _elemental_ - it could not forsee the results of its own actions. It fell from the hand of Isildur, betraying him to the Orcs, and lay in the waters of the Gladden Fields for millennia. It claimed Smeagol, but was hidden under the Misty Mountains for centuries. It transferred to Bilbo, and lay in the Shire for decades. It was fitting that the Ring was the author of its own destruction. It occurs to me that from this perspective, it’s possible to view the story as the comic-frustrating tale of a Ring whose choices all go awry as it tries to get home. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Tapiotar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3be4f8/32.png) [@Tapiotar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapiotar)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-shelob-had-killed-frodo/613433/56 "2012-02-21T15:02:51Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > I had a feeling that was wrong once I hit submit. Either way, Sam was able to seriously wound her and send her into retreat. A platoon of orcs would certainly be even more effective, if even to set up a perimeter for her to be unable to escape from her own lair. Sam was using Sting, Frodo’s elven sword, that had special powers against evil things. He also called on Elbereth and had the Phial emitting Light to confound Shelob. ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-shelob-had-killed-frodo/613433/57 "2012-02-21T15:18:58Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > I always thought the orcs were speaking debased Westron. “He listened. The Orcs from the tunnel and the others marching down had sighted one another, and both parties were now hurrying and shouting. He heard them both clearly, and he understood what they said. Perhaps the Ring gave understanding of tongues, or simply understanding, especially of the servants of Sauron its maker, so that if he gave heed, he understood and translated the thought to himself.” Now, when Pippin and Merry were taken prisoner, the orcs were speaking the common tongue, because some were from Isengard and some were from Mordor, and they couldn’t understand each others’ languages. But in Cirith Ungol, it’s definitely implied that they’re speaking their own Orc language. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-shelob-had-killed-frodo/613433/58 "2012-02-21T15:46:29Z")
**si\_blakely** , I have always thought the same about the Ring’s ultimate self-destruction and have in fact stated that position several times here on the Boards. Unfortunately, that probably was not Tolkien’s intent, as he was a devout Catholic who believed that the destruction of the Ring was an act of Grace - a eucatastrophe, as he called it - a sudden, unlooked-for, unmerited boon from an all-knowing, all-powerful, all-mericful God. The Ring got more powerful as it got closer to the place of its making. The fact that Sam had given it back to Frodo with relatively little reluctance really doesn’t say anything about what he would have done had he reached Oroduin with it. I’m rather fond of the suicide theroy myself; like Gollum’s final theft of the Ring and his resulting death/destruction of the Ring, it would be an act of great Evil (in Tolkien’s eyes - I’m all for suicide as a valid, moral option myself) leading to a great Good. And I think Sam might have been sad enough, angry enough, and determined enough to pull it off. If, on the other hand, Sam did as Frodo did - claimed the Ring for himself, presumably Gollum would have done the same as he did, and the Ring might have been destroyed. But I don’t think that Sam could have just pulled the Ring off and tossed it into the Fire. Apparently the Ring at that place was not such that anyone whatsoever could have done that, except perhaps Iluvater Himself. ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-shelob-had-killed-frodo/613433/59 "2012-02-21T15:50:30Z")
> [@Tapiotar](#): > > Sam was using Sting, Frodo’s elven sword, that had special powers against evil things. He also called on Elbereth and had the Phial emitting Light to confound Shelob. Yes. Also, Shelob used her own weight to impale herself on Sting. It’s stated in the text that her hide was too thick to be pierced by a sword or spear, regardless of the wielder. Her eyes were her only physical weakness. Ultimately, Shelob is not defeated by her wounds, but by Sam’s spirit which rouses the phial to full potency. The phial contains a fragment of the light of Earendil’s star, one of the Silmarils, a hallowed object. > [@Balance](#): > > It occurs to me that from this perspective, it’s possible to view the story as the comic-frustrating tale of a Ring whose choices all go awry as it tries to get home. > 😃 Maybe if William Shakespeare had read LotR we’d have a play about that. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-shelob-had-killed-frodo/613433/60 "2012-02-21T15:53:30Z")
> [@Oy](#): > > But I don’t think that Sam could have just pulled the Ring off and tossed it into the Fire. Apparently the Ring at that place was not such that anyone whatsoever could have done that, except perhaps Iluvater Himself. So you’re saying Iluvater is Tom Bombadil? 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-shelob-had-killed-frodo/613433.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-shelob-had-killed-frodo/613433.md?page=4)