# LOTR - What if Shelob had killed Frodo? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 20, 2012, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-shelob-had-killed-frodo/613433 "2012-02-20T17:36:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-shelob-had-killed-frodo/613433/61 "2012-02-21T17:36:18Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > So you’re saying Iluvater is Tom Bombadil? 😉 Oops, forgot about him. Frankly, I think that yes, Tom Bombadil is Iluvater (not the other way around). But the professor himself says he’s not, so I’m wrong. In any case, Tom Bombadil is Other. Just not a part of Middle-earth, or maybe _only_ a part of Middle-earth. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-shelob-had-killed-frodo/613433/62 "2012-02-21T20:13:03Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > I know you meant this as a joke, but this does raise an interesting question: What if Shelob had killed off all three halflings (Frodo, Sam, and Gollum)? What would have become of the ring then? Aragorn, Gandalf & co. had no idea of Frodo’s whereabouts, and so wouldn’t know what had happened to him or where to look to recover it. Sauron too was in the dark. Would he have had any means of divining its presence? Would Shelob have made any use of the ring, or would it have lain undisturbed in her lair for the next thousand years? The ring resizes to fit the bearer. Seems plausible it would resize to fit Shelob. At least long enough to manipulate itself to a better bearer, like with Gollum. > [@si\_blakely](#): > > She could not use or comprehend the Ring - she is evil, but it is a cunning, animal evil that is dedicated to sating hunger. Power of the sort the Ring offers holds no attraction to her. She’s a conscious and sentient being. The Ring can use her. At least until it finds a better host. What is power to Shelob? A bigger web, more prey, a larger lair with better traps. Babies? Sam was able to return the Ring to Frodo primarily because he hadn’t carried it that long and his sense of duty to his master. If Frodo had been killed and Sam had tried to carry on, assuming Gollum didn’t get the better of him and he didn’t get captured/killed by Orcs, I think he knew the reason and the duty for the mission and would have continued. When he reached Mt Oroduin, though, after having carried it (even on the chain), it would have worked into his psyche and grown stronger by proximity. I agree, Sam might have been able to suicide to destroy it, but not willingly throw it in. Tom Bombadil would never have gotten the Ring to Mordor. He’d have put it somewhere and forgotten about it, thinking it silly that anyone should care. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-shelob-had-killed-frodo/613433/63 "2012-02-21T20:53:38Z")
I think that Ungoliant (and by extension, Shelob) was a fey, a category that Tolkien goes into a bit more detail on in the _Lost Tales_. The fey are manifestations of aspects of the created World: In Ungoliant’s case, a manifestation of Darkness. I’m pretty sure this is also what Goldberry is, and possibly also the malevolent will of Caradhas. And I think it’s almost certain that Tolkien intended the Ring to be the author of its own destruction. Yes, the destruction of the Ring was a eucatastrophe, an act of God, but that’s not a contradiction: God works in mysterious ways, and Tolkien makes it explicit that God can even act through evil wills (that’s the whole point of the Great Music). ---
**Author:** ![si\_blakely](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d9b06d/32.png) [@si\_blakely](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/si_blakely)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-shelob-had-killed-frodo/613433/64 "2012-02-21T20:57:59Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > She’s a conscious and sentient being. The Ring can use her. At least until it finds a better host. > > What is power to Shelob? A bigger web, more prey, a larger lair with better traps. Babies? I’ll grant you that the Ring could call to Shelob, given time. Yeah, that would be nasty. I still think the massed Nazgul could take her. I don’t think the Nazgul can be poisoned. Si ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-shelob-had-killed-frodo/613433/65 "2012-02-21T22:33:50Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > I agree, Sam might have been able to suicide to destroy it, but not willingly throw it in. That seems quite possible. In one of his letters Tolkien wrote that if Gollum had repented, as he so nearly did when finding Frodo asleep, he would not have been able to escape his lust for the ring, and would have tried to steal or take take it by force. But after gaining possession of it, he might have thrown himself into the cracks of doom voluntarily, to complete Frodo’s quest. > [@si\_blakely](#): > > I still think the massed Nazgul could take her. I find that unlikely to be honest. The great weapon of the Nazgul was fear, they were not that potent physically. IIRC, in another letter Tolkien said part of the reason they withdrew at Weathertop was that they were afraid of the Hobbit’s barrow blades. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2012, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-shelob-had-killed-frodo/613433/66 "2012-02-21T23:59:02Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > Tom Bombadil would never have gotten the Ring to Mordor. He’d have put it somewhere and forgotten about it, thinking it silly that anyone should care. Well, if someone else could get it most of the way there, could he chuck it in? (Still, though, I’ve never quite understood the view of Tom you mention. Oh, I’ll grant it’s said by a character who apparently never talked things over with the guy – but we actually get to see Tom in action, right? Doesn’t he ask Frodo relevant questions after explaining he’d known the hobbits were coming, which is why he was on hand to ably rescue 'em? Doesn’t he then equip 'em with useful stuff, and teach 'em how to summon him if they ever need more assistance – which they do, and which he provides? Given everything we actually see him do and say, does he ever come across as anything but _ **practical** _ in the story?) ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-shelob-had-killed-frodo/613433/67 "2012-02-22T00:15:02Z")
It’s not clear, but I always thought Sam was there both to support Frodo and to take up the cause if Frodo fell. Over the course of the books he and Frodo grow a great deal, and Sam at the end fills Frodo’s shoes and then some (almost literally, if the Hobbits used shoes). Had Frodo fallen, I believe he could have found the strength to carry on. Now, would he have been able to destroy the Ring at the actual Cracks of Doom? I doubt it. But he might well have walked away minus a finger. Or perhaps the actual death of Frodo might have reawakened Gollum to his senses once more. In any case, nobody beats _God_ in the “Just as Planned!” game. > [@psychonaut](#): > > There’s no authority; it’s just speculation. As with Tom Bombadil, Tolkien never indicated Shelob and Ungoliants’ nature, neither in his books nor in his unpublished manuscripts nor in his correspondence. All he writes of Shelob is that she’s the spawn of Ungoliant and that she is very, very old. Fans have long speculated that Ungoliant was of the Maiar, and therefore Shelob was as well. Even at her best, she was nothing like Sauron. Even with the Ring he’d have crushed her will like a red-headed stepchild. She may have some inherited Mariar strength, but she’s also little mroe than an animal, driven by her hungers. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Q](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/898d66/32.png) [@Johnny\_Q](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Q)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-shelob-had-killed-frodo/613433/68 "2012-02-22T00:23:01Z")
> [@Alka\_Seltzer](#): > > I find that unlikely to be honest. The great weapon of the Nazgul was fear, they were not that potent physically. IIRC, in another letter Tolkien said part of the reason they withdrew at Weathertop was that they were afraid of the Hobbit’s barrow blades. Don’t those blades glow red in Wrath Vision? I’m sure that something that wasn’t entirely Shadowfied would warrant special attention. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-shelob-had-killed-frodo/613433/69 "2012-02-22T00:25:18Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Well, if someone else could get it most of the way there, could he chuck it in? > > (Still, though, I’ve never quite understood the view of Tom you mention. Oh, I’ll grant it’s said by a character who apparently never talked things over with the guy – but we actually get to see Tom in action, right? Doesn’t he ask Frodo relevant questions after explaining he’d known the hobbits were coming, which is why he was on hand to ably rescue 'em? Doesn’t he then equip 'em with useful stuff, and teach 'em how to summon him if they ever need more assistance – which they do, and which he provides? Given everything we actually see him do and say, does he ever come across as anything but _ **practical** _ in the story?) Sure, he’s extremely practical—within the confines of his own country, the remaining fragment of primeval forest, which he won’t go beyond. It’s not that he doesn’t have power or that he doesn’t have goodwill towards the people of good will that he encounters: it’s simply that he’s Not A Team Player. He does not consider himself a part of any society and he just doesn’t think in terms of joining forces with others. Fighting evil is one of the things that other folk do. AFAICT, Tom Bombadil represents both the good and the bad aspects of the natural world, from humanity’s standpoint, and on the (anthropomorphic and unjustified) assumption that the natural world is fundamentally benign. Forces of nature may be powerful, helpful, comforting, may even save your life, but ultimately they exist for their own purposes, and what humans do is not their concern (even though human actions may have a big cumulative impact on the natural world). Even if Tom consciously realized that Sauron’s regaining the Ring would blight all of Middle-earth and eventually destroy even his own beloved Forest, I think it still wouldn’t seem as important to him on a gut level as watching over the trees and the forest creatures and looking for the water-lilies in the spring. Tom won’t go wandering, hopping over borders, straying with a Company, strolling into Mordor. Tom has his house to mind. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-shelob-had-killed-frodo/613433/70 "2012-02-22T04:26:22Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Well, if someone else could get it most of the way there, could he chuck it in? Oh, sure, if someone else schlupped it all the way to Mt Oroduin, and then somehow managed to hand it over to Tom, he’d easily toss it in. But then, if someone managed to schlupp it all the way to the top of Mt Oroduin and _then_ handed it over to Sam, Sam would have been able to toss it in. A number of people would be able to easily toss it in after getting there and then being handed the ring, knowing what the ring is. But it’s the weight of carrying it there that builds the ring’s control. Plus, there certainly are a lot of people that would be corrupted just by touching it. And then there’s the really tough job of getting the ring from the other person. > [@](#): > > (Still, though, I’ve never quite understood the view of Tom you mention. Oh, I’ll grant it’s said by a character who apparently never talked things over with the guy – but we actually get to see Tom in action, right? Doesn’t he ask Frodo relevant questions after explaining he’d known the hobbits were coming, which is why he was on hand to ably rescue 'em? Doesn’t he then equip 'em with useful stuff, and teach 'em how to summon him if they ever need more assistance – which they do, and which he provides? Given everything we actually see him do and say, does he ever come across as anything but _ **practical** _ in the story?) Tom is given the opportunity by Frodo. He takes the ring and juggles it around, but then refuses to take on the task because it isn’t important to him. He won’t leave his forest, knowing how important the task is and how much of a burden it is to everyone else. He tells them it shouldn’t be a burden to them, like it isn’t a burden to him, but won’t sacrifice the time and effort to go to Mt Oroduin. Sure, he gave them advice and assistance, but then sent them on their way without doing the one assistance that he really could provide - carry the ring without burden and freely toss the ring in the fire. They’re on the task of their life, facing death and destruction and probably failure, and he’s there singing, dancing, making jokes, laughing it off, but refusing to make their burden easier in the one way he is uniquely qualified. So yes, I think he wouldn’t think it _really_ that important to destroy the ring, he’ll just put it away somewhere and it won’t bother anyone any more, so there. Now, back to my leaves and flowers and such. Look at the pretty butterflies. ---
**Author:** ![KKKK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/48db29/32.png) [@KKKK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KKKK)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-shelob-had-killed-frodo/613433/71 "2012-02-22T13:07:46Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > Why not? Her nature was never explicitly revealed, but it is known for certain that she is ancient—probably even older than Sauron—and it is likely that she was a Maia like him. It’s therefore well within the realm of possibility that her power is equal to, or even greater than, Sauron and his minions. Well, my assumption was that if Sam could force Shelob to back off, then Sauron with his Nazgul could do so as well – especially since he wanted the Ring far more than she did. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-shelob-had-killed-frodo/613433/72 "2012-02-22T14:00:14Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Well, if someone else could get it most of the way there, could he chuck it in? > > Oh, sure, if someone else schlupped it all the way to Mt Oroduin, and then somehow managed to hand it over to Tom, he’d easily toss it in. But then, if someone managed to schlupp it all the way to the top of Mt Oroduin and _then_ handed it over to Sam, Sam would have been able to toss it in. Well, see, I was still thinking in terms of Oy’s claim – _“I don’t think that Sam could have just pulled the Ring off and tossed it into the Fire. Apparently the Ring at that place was not such that anyone whatsoever could have done that, except perhaps Iluvater Himself”_ – which prompted my original reply. I won’t dispute you as you go further in disputing Oy’s claim. > [@](#): > > Tom is given the opportunity by Frodo. He takes the ring and juggles it around, but then refuses to take on the task because it isn’t important to him. My copy is back at the house, so I can’t now quote Tom on why he “refuses to take on the task”. Can you? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-shelob-had-killed-frodo/613433/73 "2012-02-22T14:05:15Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > My copy is back at the house, so I can’t now quote Tom on why he “refuses to take on the task”. Can you? I can quote Tim Benzedrine, “OHGODTHERUSHTHERUSHOHGOD” ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-shelob-had-killed-frodo/613433/74 "2012-02-22T14:32:36Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Well, see, I was still thinking in terms of Oy’s claim – _“I don’t think that Sam could have just pulled the Ring off and tossed it into the Fire. Apparently the Ring at that place was not such that anyone whatsoever could have done that, except perhaps Iluvater Himself”_ – which prompted my original reply. I won’t dispute you as you go further in disputing Oy’s claim. > > My copy is back at the house, so I can’t now quote Tom on why he “refuses to take on the task”. Can you? Tom doesn’t refuse the task because he’s never asked to take it. There is no “task” at the time Frodo et al encounter him. But at the Council at Rivendell, it is agreed upon by the Great that Tom would either be unwilling to take it, or unable to hold on to it responsibly. It is never even suggested that Bombadil could take it to Oroduin for destruction; just that he hold on to it instead. I think that Tom either couldn’t or absolutely wouldn’t leave the territory he controlled. I don’t care if Sam never saw or heard of the Ring before suddenly receiving it at the Fires of Mount Doom; I think he’s still not tossing that puppy into the fire. One time I went to a Pink Floyd laser show. I got there a bit late, and ended up sitting immediately in front of one of the huge amps. It was very uncomfortable. Every beat went through my body. I couldn’t have ingored it if my life had depended on it, and I sometimes thought it did. I think the Ring at the fires of Oroduin was like that amp to the 10th power to anyone holding it. It wouldn’t matter how little you might normally be tempted. In that spot, the Ring was irresistable. You might hurl yourself into the fire, but you couldn’t just toss it away. ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-shelob-had-killed-frodo/613433/75 "2012-02-22T14:42:30Z")
> [@Oy](#): > > I don’t care if Sam never saw or heard of the Ring before suddenly receiving it at the Fires of Mount Doom; I think he’s still not tossing that puppy into the fire. It seems that Tolkien himself tends to agree with you, if not quite completely. > [@J.R.R. Tolkien](#): > > I do not think that Frodo’s was a moral failure. At the last moment the > pressure of the Ring would reach its maximum - impossible, I should have > said, for any one to resist, certainly after long possession, months of > increasing torment, and when starved and exhausted. There is a bit of wriggle room there, as he says it’s Frodo’s long struggle against the ring that makes it certain that he couldn’t resist. He also goes on to say in the same letter that Frodo might have realised it would have been impossible to keep the ring out of Sauron’s hands, and might have thrown himself and it into the fire. The lure of the ring is an overwhelming desire to possess it, not to preserve it. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-shelob-had-killed-frodo/613433/76 "2012-02-22T15:09:27Z")
> [@Oy](#): > > Tom doesn’t refuse the task because he’s never asked to take it. There is no “task” at the time Frodo et al encounter him. But at the Council at Rivendell, it is agreed upon by the Great that Tom would either be unwilling to take it, or unable to hold on to it responsibly. As I said, though, (a) some of the Great accept Gandalf’s take on the guy because they’re not familiar with Tom and so can’t really say a thing against him – Elrond wonders if they should’ve invited Tom, Erestor asks about giving Tom the ring, Galdor admits he knows little of the guy besides his name – and (b) Gandalf has, apparently, never yet actually sat down and had a good talk with the guy he’s badmouthing, as he looks forward to doing so for the first time near the end of the book. So what do they know? What does their agreement reflect? ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-shelob-had-killed-frodo/613433/77 "2012-02-22T15:18:37Z")
Frodo’s failure might not have been a moral failure - but I’m betting the character saw it that way. (was Tolkien wise not to show us Frodo’s point of view for most of the latter half of the story? I think so - makes the character more interesting). one of the reasons he had to leave middle earth - couldn’t live with the guilt, whether deserved or not. tragic. Waldo Pepper (the great) - has a good question about the Council. they probably knew no more about Bombadil than we do, but had to make a decision based on what little info they had. and Oy - I love that Pink Floyd comparison. In the films they had a strong heartbeat like sound going whenever the ring was strongly tempting someone (Smeagol, then Frodo at the Cracks of Doom) - just like your experience at that concert. ---
**Author:** ![Alka\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c89c15/32.png) [@Alka\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alka_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-shelob-had-killed-frodo/613433/78 "2012-02-22T15:22:57Z")
> [@well\_he\_s\_back](#): > > Frodo’s failure might not have been a moral failure - but I’m betting the character saw it that way. Yes, Tolkien talks about this in detail in the same letter (246 if anyone has the book Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien). ---
**Author:** ![Bootis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e8c25b/32.png) [@Bootis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootis)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-shelob-had-killed-frodo/613433/79 "2012-02-22T16:36:11Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > So what do they know? What does their agreement reflect? Gandalf knows that Tom won’t step outside the boundaries of his land. Being a Maia, perhaps Gandalf knows more about why this is but isn’t at liberty to discuss it, but Gandalf also makes it clear he wants the ring destroyed and not just kept safe for the convenience of those living in the current age. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 22, 2012, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-shelob-had-killed-frodo/613433/80 "2012-02-22T17:11:58Z")
> [@](#): > > Gandalf has, apparently, never yet actually sat down and had a good talk with the guy he’s badmouthing, as he looks forward to doing so for the first time near the end of the book. Does he actually say that he’s never talked with him before? I thought it was just something he was looking forward to, which could just mean that it’s been too long since he’s had a chance, not that he never has. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-shelob-had-killed-frodo/613433.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-if-shelob-had-killed-frodo/613433.md?page=5)