# LOTR What Ifs **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 14, 2005, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-ifs/294488 "2005-03-14T17:32:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2005, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-ifs/294488/1 "2005-03-14T17:32:53Z")
What If - Gandalf had really died in Moria (that is, he wasn’t sent back after death to complete his mission)? or What If - Denethor hadn’t died and had questioned Aragorn’s right to the throne? Yes, I’m a Rings nut & I’m having LOTR discussion withdrawal pangs. And I did one of these “what ifs” once before & got some interesting answers. So I’m counting on the Straight Doper Ringers to help me out once again. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2005, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-ifs/294488/2 "2005-03-14T18:11:24Z")
> [@well he's back](#): > > What If - Denethor hadn’t died and had questioned Aragorn’s right to the throne? When the last king died without an heir, Aragorn’s ancesters claimed the throne. The Gondorians basically told them to go pound sand. What allowed Aragorn to successfully claim the throne was (1) his ancestry, and (2), MUCH more imporatantly, he was a victorious general who had just saved the city’s collective ass, and was popular and charismatic to boot. Had Denethor holed up in the tower and Aragorn went out and fought the battles, the people would probably have told Denethor to go pound sand. ---
**Author:** ![Monstre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@Monstre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monstre)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2005, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-ifs/294488/3 "2005-03-14T18:23:05Z")
On the second question, I agree with **Brother Cadafel**. On the first, that’s trickier. Frodo and Sam might still have been able to complete their mission, but it would have been harder without the distraction provided by the armies of Gondor at the gates, routing the Mordor armies northward. But if Gandalf had not come back, Minas Tirith would probably have fallen. Who knows where Aragorn would have been at that point – since they had originally set off to save Merry and Pippin. Perhaps they would have succeeded on that count, since the hobbits were off in Fangorn. But without Gandalf, Rohan would likely have fallen to Saruman, or at the very least, they probably would have stayed occupied while Sauron’s armies overran Minas Tirith. If Frodo still managed to destroy the ring, it would have come too late to save Gondor and Rohan, but at least Sauron could still have been eventually destroyed. ---
**Author:** ![Ninja\_Pizza\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f04885/32.png) [@Ninja\_Pizza\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ninja_Pizza_Guy)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2005, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-ifs/294488/4 "2005-03-15T01:59:06Z")
Here’s a what-if I’ve pondered: what if Smaug had eaten Bilbo, Ring & all? Would Smaug then have (potentially) command of the Ring? Most everything I’ve read says it’d take great power of will to command the Ring, and I can’t think of much that’d have greater will power than a dragon. ---
**Author:** ![Kaotic\_Newtral](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/71e660/32.png) [@Kaotic\_Newtral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaotic_Newtral)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2005, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-ifs/294488/5 "2005-03-15T02:23:12Z")
> [@Ninja Pizza Guy](#): > > Here’s a what-if I’ve pondered: what if Smaug had eaten Bilbo, Ring & all? Would Smaug then have (potentially) command of the Ring? Most everything I’ve read says it’d take great power of will to command the Ring, and I can’t think of much that’d have greater will power than a dragon. Oof, I like that. The only thing I can think of is that it has to be worn by the owner. When the ring dutifully passed thru Smaug’s lower bowels, how would the dragon control it? AFAIK, there’s nowhere that even a small dragon could wear it. I’d figure it has to be men or creatures built in the same likeness. -K (oh, and I could be a moron) ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2005, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-ifs/294488/6 "2005-03-15T03:32:11Z")
> [@Ninja Pizza Guy](#): > > Here’s a what-if I’ve pondered: what if Smaug had eaten Bilbo, Ring & all? Would Smaug then have (potentially) command of the Ring? Most everything I’ve read says it’d take great power of will to command the Ring, and I can’t think of much that’d have greater will power than a dragon. I don’t know what you mean by “command”. If by command, you mean that the dragon would be able to use whatever powers it might confer on its owner, then yes, Smaug would, I would guess, be able to wield a great power through it. On the other hand, if you mean being able to resist Sauron’s control of the ring and perhaps setting up its own evil empire in Wilderland, then probably not. Everything I know about the ring leads me to believe that freedom from Sauron’s control isn’t determined by your stature nor even your greed. So while Smaug might greatly desire to control the ring for himself and covet the entire world, this would be of no avail against the Ring. But who knows, perhaps he could, stranger things have happened. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2005, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-ifs/294488/7 "2005-03-15T05:25:51Z")
> [@](#): > > When the last king died without an heir, Aragorn’s ancesters claimed the throne. The Gondorians basically told them to go pound sand. IIRC, none of Aragorn’s ancestors did claim the throne after Isildur died. They chose exile instead. > [@](#): > > Oof, I like that. The only thing I can think of is that it has to be worn by the owner. When the ring dutifully passed thru Smaug’s lower bowels, how would the dragon control it? AFAIK, there’s nowhere that even a small dragon could wear it. The ring can change its size, and a powerful enough weilder could keep it on his finger far better than Isildur did. > [@](#): > > On the other hand, if you mean being able to resist Sauron’s control of the ring and perhaps setting up its own evil empire in Wilderland, then probably not. Everything I know about the ring leads me to believe that freedom from Sauron’s control isn’t determined by your stature nor even your greed. The Ring was never under Sauron’s direct command, except while he wore it. It was an agent of his corruption, in the sense it was part of him. Smaug, of course, needed little encouragement from even Sauron’s Ring. The Ring never put Frodo under Sauron’s control - it was trying to lead him into death or into Sauron’s clutches, where Sauron would claim the Ring directly. Smaug with the Ring might not actually have been stronger than Sauron, but it would not have been an easy battle either way. He definitely would have been able to dominate a horde of orcs. He almost certainly would have had the will to use it “properly” as well. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2005, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-ifs/294488/8 "2005-03-15T05:53:01Z")
Yes, the Ring can work through mysterious ways. But these would be to the benefit of Sauron rather than Smaug, in the end. But these conjectures aside, I would dispute the implication that since the Ring never put Frodo under Sauron’s control, that it would _never_ do so – after all, he only had it on for a few minutes total. Between that amount of time, and the amount of time the Nine had had the rings on, he would certainly have succumbed to it and become an absolute tool of Sauron. And Smaug all the moreso because he probably would have had the Ring on nearly all the time, since he wouldnt resist the desire for power. ---
**Author:** ![Monstre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@Monstre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monstre)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2005, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-ifs/294488/9 "2005-03-15T06:06:49Z")
> [@smiling bandit](#): > > IIRC, none of Aragorn’s ancestors did claim the throne after Isildur died. They chose exile instead. You’re right – Aragorn’s ancestors didn’t go claim the Gondor throne. Although I’m not sure I would call it exile. Isildur was the ruler over the northern kingdom, Arnor, and he was on his way back there when he died. Isildur’s brother, Anarion, would have been king in Gondor (the southern kingdom) had he not died in the battle against Sauron, along with his father. Anarion’s son became king in Gondor, and his descendants ruled the southern kingdom until that line of kings died out – and the line of stewards ruled Gondor from that point on. Isildur’s descendants ruled in the northern kingdom, I believe there were 8 kings of his line in Arnor, until that kingdom fell. After that, his line continued, but with no more kindgom, they became wanderers, rangers, who watched over the northern lands more secretly. So Aragorn’s claim was due to his descent from Elendil (who founded both Arnor and Gondor) – he was not actually a direct descendant of the kings of Gondor (if you count it from Anarion’s line). ---
**Author:** ![Spiratu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@Spiratu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiratu)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2005, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-ifs/294488/10 "2005-03-15T07:41:46Z")
Not sure how this relates to Smaug’s eating the One Ring, but I seem to remember that some of the seven dwarven rings were destroyed by dragon digestive systems. The Encyclopedia of Arda ([http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/](http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/)) confirms this. > [@](#): > > The Dwarves proved too hardy to be lured in this way, though, and the Rings did little more than increase their native lust for gold. By the end of the Third Age, Sauron had recovered three of the Seven Rings to himself, and the other four had been consumed by dragons. Of course, it’s well established that the One Ring could only be destroyed in Mount Doom, so presumably it would have survived being eaten as well. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2005, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-ifs/294488/11 "2005-03-15T08:11:10Z")
What if Frodo had given the ring to Galadriel? What if it had taken several thousand more years–say until around 2000 A.D.–for the ring to be found? -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2005, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-ifs/294488/12 "2005-03-15T11:44:39Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > What if Frodo had given the ring to Galadriel? > > -FrL- Ooh, not good. The Ring comes into the possession of a millennia-old early-generation Noldo who used to hob-nob with the Valar themselves once upon a time and knocked around with Melian the Maia for centuries. In short, about as powerful and learned as you get without actually being an Ainu. With the aid of the Ring she disposes of Sauron in short order, and all of his minions. As Sam suggested, she would make some people pay for their dirty work. But as she herself replied, it would not stop at that. Everyone who knows of her loves her desperately and is a mere plaything for her every whim (“All shall love me and despair!”). And as the Ring gets to work on her, her whims become more and more destructive. Perhaps she takes it upon herself to remake the lands east of the sea in the likeness of Valinor, or to swell Lothlorien until it covers the whole earth. Everything that doesn’t fit into her vision of this marvellous jewel gets terminated with extreme prejudice (a bit like Lilith de Tempscire’s obsession with fitting everyone into a fairytale whether they wanted to or not, in “Witches Abroad”). As the several members of the Wise experience misgivings about what she is doing, she becomes aware of their thoughts (as she could sense Sauron’s thoughts about the Elves, even without the Ring) and one by one Gandalf, Elrond, Cirdan, Celeborn and so on meet horrible fates. No-one left in Middle-Earth has the power to take the Ring away from her. Thoughtcrime is punishable by death. Eventually everyone in the world is nothing but an automaton acting out her demented fantasies until the end of time. One of the basic themes of LoTR was “Not only must we keep the Ring out of Sauron’s hands, we must make sure that no-one else with the power to wield it ever does so.” ---
**Author:** ![Lilacs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Lilacs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lilacs)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2005, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-ifs/294488/13 "2005-03-15T13:05:23Z")
> [@Monstre](#): > > You’re right – Aragorn’s ancestors didn’t go claim the Gondor throne. Although I’m not sure I would call it exile. > > Isildur was the ruler over the northern kingdom, Arnor, and he was on his way back there when he died. Isildur’s brother, Anarion, would have been king in Gondor (the southern kingdom) had he not died in the battle against Sauron, along with his father. Anarion’s son became king in Gondor, and his descendants ruled the southern kingdom until that line of kings died out – and the line of stewards ruled Gondor from that point on. > > Isildur’s descendants ruled in the northern kingdom, I believe there were 8 kings of his line in Arnor, until that kingdom fell. After that, his line continued, but with no more kindgom, they became wanderers, rangers, who watched over the northern lands more secretly. Yes, but Arvedui, the last king of Arthedain, did try to claim kingship of Gondor. He was rejected because he wasn’t of the line of Anarion. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2005, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-ifs/294488/14 "2005-03-15T14:44:40Z")
> [@Lilacs](#): > > Yes, but Arvedui, the last king of Arthedain, did try to claim kingship of Gondor. He was rejected because he wasn’t of the line of Anarion. Or, to put it another way, the Gondorians basically told him to go pound sand. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2005, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-ifs/294488/15 "2005-03-15T14:58:46Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > I would dispute the implication that since the Ring never put Frodo under Sauron’s control, that it would _never_ do so – after all, he only had it on for a few minutes total. A few minutes? Frodo had been using the Ring for years. Maybe you’re thinking of Sam? And I’ll echo **smiling bandit** ’s post - wearers of the Ring weren’t in danger of being under Sauron’s control - they were in danger of being corrupted by absolute power. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2005, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-ifs/294488/16 "2005-03-15T15:49:02Z")
> [@](#): > > A few minutes? Frodo had been using the Ring for years. Bilbo had. Frodo had the ring for years but neber used it until the adventure started. > [@](#): > > But these would be to the benefit of Sauron rather than Smaug, in the end. The Ring wasn’t that intelligent or manipulative. It was Sauron’s evil Will, not a mere vessel for his control. > [@](#): > > I would dispute the implication that since the Ring never put Frodo under Sauron’s control, that it would never do so – after all, Tolkein wrote extensively in his letters about what the Ring could and could not do. He never mentions the Ring being able to take contorl of anyone. In fact, he specifically notes several alternate paths where someone else claimed the Ring (he notes Galadriel, Saruman, Gandalf, and Elrond as possibilities). Only Gandalf would have been expected to win, though the others would at the least pressed Sauron hard. And a Dragon’s native strength was not much less than any of these. What if it had taken several thousand more years–say until around 2000 A.D.–for the ring to be found? [/quote] Then we’d still be in the third age. ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2005, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-ifs/294488/17 "2005-03-15T15:52:55Z")
Here’s an unusually demented question: what if an elf wore or carried the ring while heading to Valinor? It’s said that the ring could only be unmade in Mount Doom, but somehow I think that Tulkas pounding on it for a while might serve as well. Also: what if Frodo had cut off Smeagol’s arms, had him wear the ring (while on a leash and such), and then simply booted him into Mount Doom? Also, I think it can be assumed that any attempt to render the ring unwearable (keep it in a sealed box and such) would fail either outright or when it would be most bad for the box to open. ---
**Author:** ![HPL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3da27b/32.png) [@HPL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HPL)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2005, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-ifs/294488/18 "2005-03-15T16:23:20Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > What if it had taken several thousand more years–say until around 2000 A.D.–for the ring to be found? > > -FrL- It wouldn’t matter. Sauron’s armies would have wiped the floor with Gondor and then Rohan…and then everywhere else. He didn’t need the Ring in his possession to win. He was well on the way to that already. Destorying on the other hand, is a definate loss for Sauron. ---
**Author:** ![HPL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3da27b/32.png) [@HPL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HPL)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2005, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-ifs/294488/19 "2005-03-15T16:25:49Z")
> [@robertliguori](#): > > Also: what if Frodo had cut off Smeagol’s arms, had him wear the ring (while on a leash and such), and then simply booted him into Mount Doom? I’d imagine the following: Smeagol would have screamed horribly for a while, and then died of blood loss(assuming one of the hobbits didn’t just kill him to stop him from screaming or put him out of his misery.) And even if not, how do you expect him to climb up that cliff leading to Shelob’s lair with no arms? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2005, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-ifs/294488/20 "2005-03-15T18:06:39Z")
> [@HPL](#): > > It wouldn’t matter. Sauron’s armies would have wiped the floor with Gondor and then Rohan…and then everywhere else. > > He didn’t need the Ring in his possession to win. He was well on the way to that already. Destorying on the other hand, is a definate loss for Sauron. But… so then you could have a story where Sauron had ruled triumphant for thousands of years, with the ring remaining hidden the entire time, (or somehow getting lost again), only to be found finally and destroyed, ending Sauron’s dark reign. That could be kinda cool… what would Sauron’s kingdom look like after thousands of years? He’s not going to just destroy everything–he wants to rule over something, after all. So what sort of “ideal” would he be going for? Would technology of any sort be pursued? Would none but orcs be left alive? Would Sauron’s rule ever actually be complete or would there be resistance somewhere in the world all the way til the end? (There would have to be, I guess, if there could be a story told about the ring’s destruction after all those millenia (sp?) ) Well, I think it’s an interesting scenario… -FrL- [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-ifs/294488.md?page=2)