# LOTR What Ifs **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** middle-earth\ **Created:** [March 14, 2005, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-ifs/294488 "2005-03-14T17:32:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![EmeraldGrue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dc4da7/32.png) [@EmeraldGrue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EmeraldGrue)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2005, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-ifs/294488/41 "2005-03-16T20:08:05Z")
As a matter of fact at one point in the drafts Eowyn really was a romantic interest for Aragorn, and came across as gentler and kinder.\* But Tolkien wrote that out of the story, deciding that they weren’t compatible–Aragorn was too stern and old. What if a race allied with our white hats, like the Pukel-men, Eagles, or Ents, had allied with Sauron? What if Frodo’s name had remained Bingo? 🙂 * * * \*(In other versions she was more Amazonnish and died in the Battle of the Pelennor Fields.) ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2005, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-ifs/294488/42 "2005-03-16T22:11:09Z")
> [@](#): > > As a matter of fact at one point in the drafts Eowyn really was a romantic interest for Aragorn, and came across as gentler and kinder.\* But Tolkien wrote that out of the story, deciding that they weren’t compatible–Aragorn was too stern and old. Actually, the jackson version was pretty good here, with Aragorin considering it a decent match since his real love, he thought, was going away forever. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2005, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-ifs/294488/43 "2005-03-16T22:18:00Z")
Yes, I really enjoy the film Eowyn. But even the book one is before her time, really–thank you, JRRT for her! ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-ifs/294488/44 "2005-03-17T01:23:06Z")
> [@Lochdale](#): > > My interpretation is that dragon’s fire could destroy the ring (this was the same fire that could hurt Valar) but that there was, currently (as in the third-age), no dragon in existence that could do so . It was specifically said in LOTR (Council of Elrond, IIRC) that no dragon, not even Ancalagon the Black, had a flame hot enough to melt the One Ring. > [@](#): > > They were commanded by Eru not to interfere directly. This was a response to the sinking of Beleriand. Cite? I don’t recall this _at all_. Not in Sil, UT, or in HOMES. Now I’ll be the first to admit that I may well have missed it in HOMES, but if it’s there, please let me know where it is so I can be properly edified. > [@](#): > > I always read the books as suggesting that Gandalf was a weaker Maia than Sauron. It is highly unlikely that he would have won a face-to-face battle with Sauron without using the ring. Gandalf the Grey certainly seemed to be a weaker _Istari_ than Saruman the White. However, whether Olorin the Maia of Irmo was less potent than Curumo the Maia of Aulë is uncertain, as far as I know. ---
**Author:** ![lizardling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f4b2a3/32.png) [@lizardling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lizardling)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-ifs/294488/45 "2005-03-17T01:38:03Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > In LOTR it specifically mentions that Legolas did run out of arrows and was scavenging whatever unbroken orc arrows he could find to fire back at them. > > That always struck me as a bit odd, that an Elf would willingly use Orc tools, even for the purpose of killing orcs. Why? As the other poster said below, it’s pragmatic. And it also strikes me as poetic justice – turning the works of the Orcs back on themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-ifs/294488/46 "2005-03-17T08:39:58Z")
> [@Qadgop the Mercotan](#): > > . > It was specifically said in LOTR (Council of Elrond, IIRC) that no dragon, not even Ancalagon the Black, had a flame hot enough to melt the One Ring. I told him, son, I just _told_ him. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-ifs/294488/47 "2005-03-17T16:04:19Z")
> [@](#): > > Gandalf the Grey certainly seemed to be a weaker Istari than Saruman the White. However, whether Olorin the Maia of Irmo was less potent than Curumo the Maia of Aulë is uncertain, as far as I know. Sauron != Saruman. I know, I now, you just skimmed over the names. 😉 Just teasing you. Sauron certainly was more powerful, since he shared in Morgoth’s gifts of, well, everything. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-ifs/294488/48 "2005-03-17T21:05:48Z")
Of the Rings which were consumed by dragons (I think this means "consumed by dragon-_fire_, not just eaten), might one suppose that the “essence” of the ring passed to the dragon itself? As I recall, the main benefit of the Dwarvish rings was that they facilitated the accumulation of wealth, a power which a dragon would well appreciate. And if consuming it did not grant the dragon this power, one would think that the dragon would have kept it intact for use. It’s never explicitly stated that Sauron was the most powerful of the Maiar, but it’s implied, and he’s certainly stronger than Gandalf or Saruman. It is, however, explicitly stated that Gandalf was the wisest. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-ifs/294488/49 "2005-03-17T21:40:35Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > And if consuming it did not grant the dragon this power, one would think that the dragon would have kept it intact for use. Unless there was some other specific purpose for destroying such a ring - like getting the dwarves or Ringwraiths out of your hair who keep pestering you to get their stuff back. But I do like the concept of “you are what you eat” that you suggest. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-ifs/294488/50 "2005-03-17T22:48:28Z")
> [@](#): > > Of the Rings which were consumed by dragons (I think this means "consumed by dragon-fire, not just eaten), might one suppose that the “essence” of the ring passed to the dragon itself? It probably means they were destroyed along with the Dwarf-King who had in battle. > [@](#): > > As I recall, the main benefit of the Dwarvish rings was that they facilitated the accumulation of wealth, a power which a dragon would well appreciate. No, that was a side effect. The idea was to make the Dwarf-Kings slaves and eventually wraiths of Sauron. But unlike men, the Dwarves were first formed by Aule from rock and steel, and they did not break easily. The Rings failed almost totally, with the only real result being the creation of the great hordes. > [@](#): > > And if consuming it did not grant the dragon this power, one would think that the dragon would have kept it intact for use. The Dragons may not have even noticed the power. The lesser Rings were good for preserving things, but weren’t really very useful to a Dragon. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2005, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-ifs/294488/51 "2005-03-17T23:26:01Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Unless there was some other specific purpose for destroying such a ring - like getting the dwarves or Ringwraiths out of your hair who keep pestering you to get their stuff back. But I do like the concept of “you are what you eat” that you suggest. Wouldn’t Smaug (or anyone else) have to be a metallivore to get any intrinsics from eating the One Ring? ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2005, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-ifs/294488/52 "2005-03-18T05:09:04Z")
> [@](#): > > They were commanded by Eru not to interfere directly. This was a response to the sinking of Beleriand. > [@Qadgop the Mercotan](#): > > Cite? I don’t recall this _at all_. Not in Sil, UT, or in HOMES. Now I’ll be the first to admit that I may well have missed it in HOMES, but if it’s there, please let me know where it is so I can be properly edified. I had the impression that it was Eru that pushed Beleriand under. The Valar laid aside their stewardship (i.e. didn’t plea on the behalf of the doomed continent) when the Old Man got P.O.'d so he done it. DD ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2005, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-ifs/294488/53 "2005-03-18T13:37:06Z")
> [@asterion](#): > > Wouldn’t Smaug (or anyone else) have to be a metallivore to get any intrinsics from eating the One Ring? You mean one of the Seven, right? Because it was previously pointed out that the One Ring couldn’t be destroyed by dragons. And I think \*\*smiling bandit \*\* has it in one - the rings were consumed by eating the dwarf wearing it - not that a dragon would intentionally eat a ring to see if it has an effect on him. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2005, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-ifs/294488/54 "2005-03-18T13:43:45Z")
> [@DesertDog](#): > > I had the impression that it was Eru that pushed Beleriand under. The Valar laid aside their stewardship (i.e. didn’t plea on the behalf of the doomed continent) when the Old Man got P.O.'d so he done it. I think you’re thinking of Numernor and the invasion of Aman. Eru changed to nature of the world removing Aman from the rest of Middle-Earth. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2005, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-ifs/294488/55 "2005-03-18T13:54:01Z")
Since we’re on rings here’s a quick question for the resident experts. The dwarven ring held by Durin’s folk, was it given by Sauron or by Celebrimbor? I know Sauron sacked Eregion and took all the great rings (except for the three). These he then handed out to men and the dwarven clans. Now since Khazad-dum was shut following the sacking of Eregion how (or why) would the Dwarves open the gates to allow either Anatar (Sauron) or an emissary to arrive bearing a ring of power? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2005, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-ifs/294488/56 "2005-03-18T21:12:35Z")
> [@](#): > > No, that was a side effect. The idea was to make the Dwarf-Kings slaves and eventually wraiths of Sauron. Yeah, but I wouldn’t exactly call that a benefit. “Here, Durin, take this ring!” “What does it do?” “Well, it’ll consume your soul and make you a miserable, hollow slave of Sauron’s malice with no free will.” “Sounds great! I’ll take seven!” Nah, I’m not seeing it. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2005, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-ifs/294488/57 "2005-03-18T22:29:38Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > I think you’re thinking of Numernor and the invasion of Aman. Eru changed to nature of the world removing Aman from the rest of Middle-Earth. Well, technically, Aman and Endor (aka ME) were never contiguous. What Eru did was sort of split the world in two; one portion a vestige of its original flat design, the other a globe. All but a select few mortals were bound to the latter, while Elves could cross over into the former, sailing off on “The Straight Road”, which was nothing less than the Western world as it was before the Fall of Numenor. It would appear The Straight Road met The World Made Round tangentially at about the shores of Lindon, invisible to mortal eyes, and in fact immaterial to their bodies and other senses, and kind of astral plane, I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-ifs/294488/58 "2005-03-19T01:30:26Z")
I think you’ve explained it better than I did. But I don’t Lindon was favoured over other places since Legolas departed by sailing down Anduin ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-ifs/294488/59 "2005-03-19T02:45:03Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > You mean one of the Seven, right? Because it was previously pointed out that the One Ring couldn’t be destroyed by dragons. > > And I think \*\*smiling bandit \*\* has it in one - the rings were consumed by eating the dwarf wearing it - not that a dragon would intentionally eat a ring to see if it has an effect on him. It was a joke. In NetHack, your character can pick up intrinsics from eating amulets (and I believe rings as well) while polymorphed into a metallivore. ---
**Author:** ![Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laughing_Lagomorph)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-ifs/294488/60 "2005-03-19T03:14:57Z")
OK, my LOTR what if, based in part of some of the discussions up to this point: What if the Balrog in Moria had gained possesion of the Ring? I assume it would have claimed the Ring for its own. Would it have been able to defeat Sauron with it? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-ifs/294488.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-ifs/294488.md?page=4)