# LOTR What Ifs **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** middle-earth\ **Created:** [March 14, 2005, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-ifs/294488 "2005-03-14T17:32:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-ifs/294488/61 "2005-03-19T05:06:10Z")
> [@DesertDog](#): > > I had the impression that it was Eru that pushed Beleriand under. The Valar laid aside their stewardship (i.e. didn’t plea on the behalf of the doomed continent) when the Old Man got P.O.'d so he done it. > > DD **Grey** has it right. Beleriand was wrecked by the fury and might of the battle in the War of Wrath. Eru did not intervene then. Eru only got called in when Valinor got invaded, Numenor thrown down, and the very nature of the world changed. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-ifs/294488/62 "2005-03-19T05:10:07Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > Since we’re on rings here’s a quick question for the resident experts. The dwarven ring held by Durin’s folk, was it given by Sauron or by Celebrimbor? I know Sauron sacked Eregion and took all the great rings (except for the three). These he then handed out to men and the dwarven clans. > > Now since Khazad-dum was shut following the sacking of Eregion how (or why) would the Dwarves open the gates to allow either Anatar (Sauron) or an emissary to arrive bearing a ring of power? From:[Faq of the Rings](http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm#Q79-Intent) > [@](#): > > Thorin Oakenshield’s ancestors, down to his father, bore one of the Seven. “The Dwarves of Durin’s Folk … say that it was given to the King of Khazad-dûm, Durin III, by the Elven-smiths themselves and not by Sauron, though doubtless his evil power was on it.” [LotR App A(III) (1113)]. Perhaps this is one of the legends about a great leader, like George Washington and the cherry tree, that are part of a people’s tradition without being literally true. This particular Dwarvish tradition is contradicted by The Silmarillion: “Sauron gathered into his hands all the remaining Rings of Power. … Seven Rings he gave to the Dwarves” [Silm: Rings (288)]. ---
**Author:** ![Sample\_the\_Dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8797f3/32.png) [@Sample\_the\_Dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sample_the_Dog)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-ifs/294488/63 "2005-03-19T05:24:47Z")
This may seem like a joke, but it’s a serious question… What if C.S. Lewis had converted Tolkien to a-Christian theism in 1931, rather than Tolkien (and Dyson) converting Lewis to Christianity? I have no doubt Tolkien would still have written LoTR, but how would it be different? ---
**Author:** ![Nocturne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9fc348/32.png) [@Nocturne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nocturne)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-ifs/294488/64 "2005-03-19T05:39:04Z")
> [@asterion](#): > > It was a joke. In NetHack, your character can pick up intrinsics from eating amulets (and I believe rings as well) while polymorphed into a metallivore. Yes, you can gain intrinsics from rings and amulets when you’re polymorphed as a Xorn (or any lithivore such as that). I have an obsession with NetHack. ---
**Author:** ![Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laughing_Lagomorph)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2005, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-ifs/294488/65 "2005-03-20T00:16:52Z")
> [@Laughing Lagomorph](#): > > … > What if the Balrog in Moria had gained possesion of the Ring? I assume it would have claimed the Ring for its own. Would it have been able to defeat Sauron with it? ☹ No one? ---
**Author:** ![Sample\_the\_Dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8797f3/32.png) [@Sample\_the\_Dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sample_the_Dog)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2005, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-ifs/294488/66 "2005-03-20T00:37:36Z")
> [@Laughing Lagomorph](#): > > What if the Balrog in Moria had gained possesion of the Ring? I assume it would have claimed the Ring for its own. Would it have been able to defeat Sauron with it? It’s possible. The balrogs are also Maia, as are Sauron and Gandalf. Presumably, the Balrog of Moria fled Angband after Melkor’s defeat in the War of Wrath at the end of the First Age of the Sun. What status this balrog had in the pecking order prior to the Second Age isn’t known. But although the balrogs were Melkor’s chief henchmen, Gothmog\* being first among them, it seems clear that even at this point Sauron was the next in succession. Also, the Balrog of Moria had been inactive for some 6 millenia, while Sauron on the other hand had been building his power. But if the BoM possessed the One Ring, this might have tipped the balance. \*Gothmog is also the name of Sauron’s lieutenant during the War of the Ring. ---
**Author:** ![well\_he\_s\_back](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/3ab097/32.png) [@well\_he\_s\_back](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/well_he_s_back)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2005, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-ifs/294488/67 "2005-03-21T17:32:27Z")
I realize I probably shouldn’t bump up a thread I started but - I loved the speculation about the Balrog getting the ring. I’ve often wondered about that myself. I’m still wondering who would have roused Theoden and Rohan’s forces if Gandalf had “really” died. And what if Faramir had journeyed to Rivendell and not Boromir? How would the division of the Fellowship occurred? Would Boromir deny Aragorn’s right to the kingship? Thanks for all the responses. Since I can’t live in the fictional world of Middle Earth, discussing it is the next best thing. and I’m glad we didn’t devolve into fanfic what ifs about Aragorn/Arwen/Eowyn. My own responses to other what ifs: If Frodo had died at Shelob’s lair, Sam probably could have destroyed the ring, but the book would not have had as much of an impact. Ditto for if Frodo had tossed in the ring rather than claiming it. I think the plot thread of Frodo succumbing to the ring is one of the most powerful aspects of LOTR (for reasons I won’t go into here). ---
**Author:** ![EmeraldGrue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dc4da7/32.png) [@EmeraldGrue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EmeraldGrue)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2005, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-ifs/294488/68 "2005-03-21T18:49:47Z")
Regarding the Balrog acquiring the Ring, it’s already been calculated [here](http://flyingmoose.org/tolksarc/theories/calculus.htm): > [@](#): > > Bv - 1/2(S[sub]n[/sub]-R) \< G[sub]w[/sub] - 1/2(S[sub]n[/sub]-R) 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-what-ifs/294488.md?page=3)