# LOTR: Where are the Elves going? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [September 7, 2003, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-where-are-the-elves-going/200024 "2003-09-07T01:55:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BuckleberryFerry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5f9b8f/32.png) [@BuckleberryFerry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BuckleberryFerry)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2003, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-where-are-the-elves-going/200024/21 "2003-09-07T17:18:42Z")
Question: Is it said explicitly that Sam goes to Tol Eressea? I skimmed the appendices and I thought it was just said that he left and was never seen again…which doesn’t necessarily mean he went West. Am I just that stupid? ---
**Author:** ![lilbtagna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4491bb/32.png) [@lilbtagna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lilbtagna)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2003, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-where-are-the-elves-going/200024/22 "2003-09-07T17:30:36Z")
It’s at the end of Appendix B, **BuckleberryFerry**. 1482: Death of Mistress Rose, wife of Master Samwise, on Mid-year’s Day. On september 22 Master Samwise rides out from Bag End. He comes to the Tower Hills, and is last seen by Elanor, to whom he gives the Red book afterwards kept by the Fairbairns. Among them the tradition is handed down from Elanor that Samwise passed the Towers, and went to the Grey Havens, and passed over the Sea, last of the Ring-bearers. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2003, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-where-are-the-elves-going/200024/23 "2003-09-07T17:31:04Z")
[FAQ of the Rings](http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm) Especially this excerpt from above:[Did the Nazgul wear their rings in LOTR?](http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm#79-SauronHeld) Much ringlore is answered by this FAQ. BTW, Galadriel was also 6’ 4". Just thought you’d all want to know. 😃 **Buckleberry** , it is stated explicitly in LOTR (the appendices, I think) that the tradition in the Gamgee family (especially the Fairbairns of Westmarch) was that Sam gave the Red Book to Elanor, and headed west, where he was allowed to sail to Avalonnë. ---
**Author:** ![Soup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/977dab/32.png) [@Soup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Soup)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2003, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-where-are-the-elves-going/200024/24 "2003-09-07T17:32:40Z")
_ **From bsane** _ > [@](#): > > Also, does anyone know where the one ring was when Numenor fell and Sauron was ‘killed’ for a short time? It seems to me that if he had it on his person it would have been lost to the sea, but why would he have left it in Mordor? To expand on Incubus’ answer: At the end of the Second Age of Middle Earth, Sauron was very powerful. Aragorn’s ancestor Isildur was part of a large army of elves and men who went to the gates of Sauron’s stronghold to destroy him. Isildur fought Sauron (who still walked around in an actual body at that time) and cut off his ring finger, thereby destroying Sauron’s body. The correct thing to do at that point was to climb Mt. Doom and throw the Ring into the fires within, assuring Sauron’s utter destruction. Unfortunately, Isildur succumbed to the Ring’s power and claimed it for himself. As he traveled back from the battle, he was ambushed by Orcs along the banks of the Anduin River (it’s said that he wore the Ring to hide from the Orcs, but it slipped from his finger on its own accord, exposing him to the Orcs. This is why the Ring is referred to in LOTR as “Islidur’s Bane”). The Ring was already working to reunite with Sauron . The Ring lay at the bottom of the Anduin for a LONG time, until Deagol (a stoor, a race similar to hobbits) found it and was murdered by Smeagol (Gollum), who took the Ring and fled to the Misty Mountains, where he hid for a few hundred years until Bilbo stumbled across him. During this time, Sauron was regaining his strength and form. His most powerful servant, The Lord of the Nazgul, went to Angband and ruled as the Witch King for awhile. He eventually was defeated, but he was really only keeping the seat warm for Sauron, who by then had grown strong enough to be a force to be noticed again. ---
**Author:** ![lilbtagna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4491bb/32.png) [@lilbtagna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lilbtagna)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2003, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-where-are-the-elves-going/200024/25 "2003-09-07T17:33:13Z")
Wait, I think I see what you’re saying. It’s just tradition that he went to the Grey Havens, but there’s no proof of it. It does make sense to me though, since he was also a ring-bearer. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2003, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-where-are-the-elves-going/200024/26 "2003-09-07T17:34:24Z")
Also, [Did Sauron take the ring to Numenor?](http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm#1-Numenor) Yes he did. Oh, also the preponderance of evidence is that Sauron held the rings of the nine. JRRT himself wrote so. See the FAQ for details. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2003, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-where-are-the-elves-going/200024/27 "2003-09-07T17:36:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lilbtagna \* > \*\*Wait, I think I see what you’re saying. It’s just tradition that he went to the Grey Havens, but there’s no proof of it. \*\* Lots of JRRT’s writings have assertions without proof. It is only an assertion held by the elves in exile that Tuor was judged to be of Elven-kind and allowed into the Undying Lands. We never actually get to see his green card or anything, showing he was let in. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![bsane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@bsane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bsane)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2003, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-where-are-the-elves-going/200024/28 "2003-09-07T18:30:45Z")
Thanks Qadgop, thats a great FAQ. ---
**Author:** ![Soup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/977dab/32.png) [@Soup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Soup)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2003, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-where-are-the-elves-going/200024/29 "2003-09-07T18:59:26Z")
**bsane** Sorry, I completely misunderstood your original question (as my answer shows). Tolkien’s world is so wonderfully complex, I get lost wandering around it. I second your thanks to **Qadgop** , that FAQ is very informative. ---
**Author:** ![Eutychus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Eutychus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eutychus)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2003, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-where-are-the-elves-going/200024/30 "2003-09-07T19:19:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Soup \* > \*\*Some elves chose to go to Middle Earth, but they have the option of returning to the land of the Valar when they grow weary of Middle Earth. This involves a westward voyage over the sea. \*\* Which, if we agree that Middle Earth was located in mid to western Europe, would place Valar somewhere around New Jersey. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2003, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-where-are-the-elves-going/200024/31 "2003-09-07T19:56:12Z")
Why, Graceland, of course. ---
**Author:** ![BuckleberryFerry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5f9b8f/32.png) [@BuckleberryFerry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BuckleberryFerry)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2003, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-where-are-the-elves-going/200024/32 "2003-09-07T20:31:10Z")
Thank you, **lilbtagna** and **Qadgop**! ---
**Author:** ![Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/6bbea6/32.png) [@Laughing\_Lagomorph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Laughing_Lagomorph)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2003, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-where-are-the-elves-going/200024/33 "2003-09-07T21:35:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eutychus \* > \*\*Which, if we agree that Middle Earth was located in mid to western Europe, would place Valar somewhere around New Jersey. \*\* Really? What exit? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2003, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-where-are-the-elves-going/200024/34 "2003-09-07T21:56:15Z")
Well, if Long Island/Manhattan/Staten Island corresponds to Tol Eressea and the Enchanted Isles, then Jersey City would be Tirion, and Scranton/Wilkes-Barre, PA, would be Valimar… Who knew the Valar were Polish? ---
**Author:** ![Sinungaling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/838e76/32.png) [@Sinungaling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinungaling)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2003, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-where-are-the-elves-going/200024/35 "2003-09-07T22:43:02Z")
What bugs me about Lord of the Rings is that it has thousands upon thousands of elves in the story, and yet Santa Claus is never mentioned even once. I think that the Undying Lands are actually in the North Pole, and the elves made up the story of how cool the West is to hide their secret shame: they’re actually poorly-paid labourers working in some fat old man’s toy factory. In Middle-Earth he’s a king, but in the Undying Lands Elrond cleans out the reindeer stalls. And don’t forget the Keebler elves, either. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2003, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-where-are-the-elves-going/200024/36 "2003-09-07T23:12:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bryan Ekers \* > \*\*Why, Graceland, of course. \*\* Dude, page up. I beat you to it. 🙂 Well, kinda. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2003, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-where-are-the-elves-going/200024/37 "2003-09-08T00:58:15Z")
To further expand on Elvish navigation to reach the Undying Lands: Originally, the World was flat, and Valinor (the main continent of the Undying Lands) was part of the World. Anybody with a ship could reach Valinor by sailing west (except that you probably wouldn’t make it: The Powers that Be made sure that (almost) everyone who tried it would end up foundered on the rocks, or sunk in a storm, or something of the sort). But at the end of the Second Age, the World was “bent”, that is, made into a sphere. Except that when the World was bent, Valinor nevertheless stayed in the same position relative to Middle Earth (Middle Earth is just a continent, not the whole World). So if you get into a ship and try to sail to Valinor, you’ll just follow the curve of the Earth, and eventually pull a Magellan. In order to reach Valinor, you have to sail the “Straight Path”, which nobody but elves (and maybe Aelfwine or St. Brendan) know how to sail. And **Sinungaling** , Tolkien wouldn’t miss an important detail like that. Find yourself a copy of _The Father Christmas Letters_, a series of letters published by Tolkien, between Santa and his elves. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2003, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-where-are-the-elves-going/200024/38 "2003-09-08T01:00:25Z")
Can the elves travel back and forth from the Grey Havens to Middle Earth or is this a one way trip? Or, put another way, are the elves essentially dead to Middle Earth regardless if they live on somewhere else? ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2003, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-where-are-the-elves-going/200024/39 "2003-09-08T01:06:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Whack-a-Mole \* > \*\*Can the elves travel back and forth from the Grey Havens to Middle Earth or is this a one way trip? Or, put another way, are the elves essentially dead to Middle Earth regardless if they live on somewhere else? \*\* Pretty much one-way. The Noldor were in open rebellion against the Valar when they left. When the Vanyar, the remaining faithful Noldor, and the few Sindar sailors went to Middle-earth to fight Morgoth, they did so at the behest of the Valar, and all returned quickly to Valinor. Since the end of the first age, the only known travellers (if you exclude stuff from HOMES like Aelfwine’s travels) back to Middle-Earth were the five wizards, and (probably) Glorfindel. I’d hardly call the elves in the Undying Lands dead, **Whack**! ---
**Author:** ![SnugTheJoiner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e8c25b/32.png) [@SnugTheJoiner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SnugTheJoiner)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2003, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-where-are-the-elves-going/200024/40 "2003-09-08T02:46:27Z")
Where did you come from, Baby dear? _Out of the Everywhere into the Here._ Where are you going, Elves so fair? _Out of the Anywhere back to the There._ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-where-are-the-elves-going/200024.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-where-are-the-elves-going/200024.md?page=3)