# LotR: Why didn't Sauron make Elven rings? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** middle-earth, books-writing-myths\ **Created:** [February 8, 2022, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-didnt-sauron-make-elven-rings/959091 "2022-02-08T05:54:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2022, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-didnt-sauron-make-elven-rings/959091/1 "2022-02-08T05:54:34Z")
We know that Sauron made the nine rings for men (who became ring-wraiths) and seven for the dwarves (who mostly resisted the rings but became more greedy). But why not the Elves? We know Celebrimbor made three in secret that Sauron had nothing to do with. But why would Sauron not have been on top of making rings for the Elves too? Seems an oversight. Also, why were the rings Celebrimbor made plugged into the One Ring if Sauron had no part in their making? Also also, it would seem the whole “make rings to rule Middle Earth” plan was mostly a failure. Men fell for it. Dwarves mostly resisted them (but they did become worse) and Elves sensed what was happening and took their rings off. Less than half the rings really performed as hoped. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2022, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-didnt-sauron-make-elven-rings/959091/2 "2022-02-08T12:07:31Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > But why would Sauron not have been on top of making rings for the Elves too? By the time he learned of the 3, the elves were alerted to his plan, so wouldn’t have taken new rings from him. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Also, why were the rings Celebrimbor made plugged into the One Ring if Sauron had no part in their making? They were still made with Sauron’s ring lore, so that served as a connection. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2022, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-didnt-sauron-make-elven-rings/959091/3 "2022-02-08T12:21:33Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Also also, it would seem the whole “make rings to rule Middle Earth” plan was mostly a failure. Men fell for it. Dwarves mostly resisted them (but they did become worse) and Elves sensed what was happening and took their rings off. Less than half the rings really performed as hoped. Well Sauron made 17 rings and got 9 powerful, loyal ,undying servants out of it. So you’d have to say he scored over 50%! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2022, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-didnt-sauron-make-elven-rings/959091/4 "2022-02-08T12:26:02Z")
> [@glee](#): > > Well Sauron made 17 rings You need to check your arithmetic. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2022, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-didnt-sauron-make-elven-rings/959091/5 "2022-02-08T12:28:28Z")
9+7+1 = 17 ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2022, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-didnt-sauron-make-elven-rings/959091/6 "2022-02-08T12:32:13Z")
1 + 2 + 2 + 1 [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/O5ROhf5Soqs/maxresdefault.jpg "Clue (6/9) Movie CLIP - One Plus Two Plus Two Plus One (1985) HD") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5ROhf5Soqs) ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2022, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-didnt-sauron-make-elven-rings/959091/7 "2022-02-08T12:36:03Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > You need to check your arithmetic. _Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky,_ _Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,_ _Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die,_ _One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne_ _In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie_ That’s twenty Rings of Power altogether, minus the three the Elves made on their own, so that leaves 17 rings made by the Enemy. Eat your heart out, Ariana Grande. ---
**Author:** ![Pork\_Rind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pork_rind/32/111_2.png) [@Pork\_Rind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pork_Rind)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2022, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-didnt-sauron-make-elven-rings/959091/8 "2022-02-08T15:41:15Z")
Now it’s been a while since my last read through, but as I recall it, Sauron only made one ring, the big bad one. The rest of the rings were made by the elves under his tutelage, with the three elven tings being made at the end and in secret. It wasn’t until he put on the one ring that the elves realized that Sauron’s teachings hid a big gotcha ya. Maybe then the better question is, “Why didn’t Sauron ask the elves to make elven rings as part of the original purchase order?” That I don’t know. From Mr. Wiki > The Rings of Power were forged by the [Elven](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elf_(Middle-earth))-smiths of the [Noldorin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noldor) settlement of Eregion.[[T 2]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rings_of_Power#cite_note-History_of_Galadriel_and_Celeborn-3) The smiths were led by Celebrimbor, the grandson of [Fëanor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%ABanor), the greatest craftsman of the Noldor, working with Dwarves from [Khazad-dûm](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazad-d%C3%BBm) (Moria) led by his friend Narvi. [Sauron](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sauron), powerful and ambitious, but humiliated by the fall of his evil master [Morgoth](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morgoth) at the end of the [First Age](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Age), had evaded the summons of the godlike [Valar](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vala_(Middle-earth)) to surrender and face judgment; he chose to remain in [Middle-earth](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle-earth)and seek dominion over its people.[[T 3]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rings_of_Power#cite_note-Rings_of_Power_and_the_Third_Age-4) In the [Second Age](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Age), he arrived disguised as a handsome emissary of the Valar named Annatar, the Lord of Gifts, offering the knowledge to transform Middle-earth with the light of [Valinor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valinor), the home of the Valar.[[T 2]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rings_of_Power#cite_note-History_of_Galadriel_and_Celeborn-3)He was shunned by the Elven leaders [Gil-galad](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gil-galad) and [Elrond](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elrond) in [Lindon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindon_(Middle-earth)), but managed to persuade the [Noldorin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noldor) Elves of Eregion.[[T 3]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rings_of_Power#cite_note-Rings_of_Power_and_the_Third_Age-4) With Sauron’s help, they learnt to forge Rings of Power, creating the Seven and the Nine. While Celebrimbor created a set of Three on his own, Sauron left for [Mordor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordor) and forged the [One Ring](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Ring), a master ring to control all the others, in the fires of [Mount Doom](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Doom).[[T 2]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rings_of_Power#cite_note-History_of_Galadriel_and_Celeborn-3) ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2022, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-didnt-sauron-make-elven-rings/959091/9 "2022-02-08T15:44:24Z")
Maybe Sauron wasn’t a good enough craftsman. He could make ones for humans – they’d be satisfied with rings out of a CrackerJack box, especially if you promised that they were secret decoder rings that gave you magic powers. The Dwarves would like the stiff, angular Art Deco style rings he undoubtedly churned out for them. But the Elves were refined artists, and Sauron probably couldn’t hack that Art Nouveau with Celtic Knot style they were into and make it look believable. ---
**Author:** ![Pork\_Rind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pork_rind/32/111_2.png) [@Pork\_Rind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pork_Rind)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2022, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-didnt-sauron-make-elven-rings/959091/10 "2022-02-08T17:19:23Z")
It reminds me of that Mitchell and Webb bit, _[Are we the Baddies?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hn1VxaMEjRU)_ “Annatar, why does everything you make look so _angry_. Do we really need so many skulls on everything?” That said, as above, Sauron didn’t make any of the rings other than the one ring. He was the technology consultant, not the execution team. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2022, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-didnt-sauron-make-elven-rings/959091/11 "2022-02-08T22:27:43Z")
The Rings weren’t earmarked for specific races at the time of their making. Of the sixteen, nine happened to end up going to humans and seven to dwarves, but any of the rings could equally well have gone to anyone. And it’s not known whether he ever actually used hammer, anvil, or tongs himself for the nine and seven, but he did explicitly help, in some way, in their making, in cooperation with elven smiths, and that help, whatever it was, was not present with the three. ---
**Author:** ![Pork\_Rind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pork_rind/32/111_2.png) [@Pork\_Rind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pork_Rind)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2022, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-didnt-sauron-make-elven-rings/959091/12 "2022-02-08T23:47:28Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > And it’s not known whether he ever actually used hammer, anvil, or tongs himself for the nine and seven, but he did explicitly help, in some way, in their making, in cooperation with elven smiths, and that help, whatever it was, was not present with the three. I have always thought that he wasn’t physically involved, but I no longer remember if I got that out of the _History of Middle Earth series_ or just made that up. But since I floated the idea that he operated like a consultant, I am fully onboard with the idea that he make Celebrimbor sit through a bunch of PowerPoint presentations full of bad charts and weak animations. > Goal of ring-making operational procedures… > > - Enhance latent powers > - Foster a stronger commitment to personal goals > - Priority access to spirit world - health benefits = long life > - Build and maintain shared camaraderie with other ring wearers - exclusivity! > - No secret backdoors. Don’t know who brought that up - WRONG. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2022, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-didnt-sauron-make-elven-rings/959091/13 "2022-02-09T06:24:41Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The Rings weren’t earmarked for specific races at the time of their making. Of the sixteen, nine happened to end up going to humans and seven to dwarves, Which specific rings, maybe, but since the One Ring inscription is from its forging, the relative numbers for each group were always baked-in from at least then. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2022, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-didnt-sauron-make-elven-rings/959091/14 "2022-02-09T06:50:54Z")
But isn’t that inscription just this bit: > _One Ring to rule them all, One ring to find them; > One ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them._ Not the bit mentioning the way the rings are divvied up amongst the races? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2022, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-didnt-sauron-make-elven-rings/959091/15 "2022-02-09T07:33:55Z")
Mmm, you’re right, I thought the full verse was what Sauron spoke and the Elves sensed, but looking into it, it does seem like the rest is a _post_-forging-and-doling-out expansion on the Ring verse. **Chronos** has the right of it. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2022, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-didnt-sauron-make-elven-rings/959091/16 "2022-02-09T14:18:32Z")
Sauron & ring-making is heavily featured in the War/Shadow of Mordor games, but in it he is mainly an advisor in their creation. Especially since you’re working with the ghost of Celebrimbor who makes a new Ring of Power at the end of the first. Not sure how well it fits in the canon, obviously. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2022, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-didnt-sauron-make-elven-rings/959091/17 "2022-02-09T14:21:25Z")
How is it possible for a … what he is … to invest any power into a ring? The answer to “how well it fits into canon” would be “not at all” ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2022, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-didnt-sauron-make-elven-rings/959091/18 "2022-02-09T14:23:26Z")
The reasoning is that he does the same trick as Sauron-he invests **himself** into the ring. Though obviously he’d have a smaller tank to draw from than the Big S. (Are the games old enough that I still need spoilers?) ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2022, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-didnt-sauron-make-elven-rings/959091/19 "2022-02-09T14:25:48Z")
Yeah, if you’re looking for games that stay true to the canon, stay far away from the Shadow of Mordor games. They’re excellent games, don’t get me wrong, but they take very wide liberties with the source material. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2022, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-didnt-sauron-make-elven-rings/959091/20 "2022-02-09T14:42:05Z")
Agreed. The voice acting as well is quite good . [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-didnt-sauron-make-elven-rings/959091.md?page=2)