# LOTR: Why the big debate about Balrogs and wings? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 11, 2005, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-the-big-debate-about-balrogs-and-wings/284169 "2005-01-11T04:52:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-the-big-debate-about-balrogs-and-wings/284169/1 "2005-01-11T04:52:22Z")
I’ve seen many a debate or at least HEARD of them, that Tolkien fans are divided on whether or not the Balrog has wings. But I’m re-reading the book (which I’ve decided to do at least once a year), and in this passage: > [@](#): > > The Balrog made no answer. The fire in it seemed to die, but the darkness grew. It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and **its wings** were spread from wall to wall; So what’s the debate? Is it whether or not the Balrog can fly, or have I merely hallucinated hearing about it? ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-the-big-debate-about-balrogs-and-wings/284169/2 "2005-01-11T05:04:33Z")
[Didn’t we just do this?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=153812&highlight=balrog+wings) ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-the-big-debate-about-balrogs-and-wings/284169/3 "2005-01-11T05:06:20Z")
Oops, apologies – I misread the thread date as last week, it was 2 years ago (last week). ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-the-big-debate-about-balrogs-and-wings/284169/4 "2005-01-11T05:11:41Z")
Because it’s wonderfully opaque. Just previous to your quote there’s > [@](#): > > His [Gandalf’s] enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings. Then there is mention of balrogs flying to the aid of their master in an early age of Middle Earth, but then there’s the whole mater to falling to your death when you have wings to begin with. If you really want the argument written out look [here](http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/b/balrogs.html) ---
**Author:** ![EmeraldGrue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dc4da7/32.png) [@EmeraldGrue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EmeraldGrue)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-the-big-debate-about-balrogs-and-wings/284169/5 "2005-01-11T05:32:35Z")
It’s also a…_religious_ issue, sharply and violently divided between small-minded literalists who never learned any literary terms like “metaphor” and “analogy”, and elastically principled liberal folks who interpret LotR so loosely, you might as well not call them Tolkienites at all! As I recall, the movie Balrog (after John Howe’s illustrations) had wings – but if I speak any longer on this it’ll have to be in the Pit. damn PJ… ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-the-big-debate-about-balrogs-and-wings/284169/6 "2005-01-11T05:55:09Z")
> [@EmeraldGrue](#): > > As I recall, the movie Balrog had wings Well… sort of. In the first movie, it was fairly ambiguous; you could make out wings, but they were wrapped in shadow. Hard to say. In the second movie, Gandalf stabbed Mister B, then we saw the Balrog fall to the ground, dead. With visible wings. So PJ’s Balrog had wings. We still don’t know (and will never know) if JRRT’s balrog had wings. ---
**Author:** ![paulberserker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@paulberserker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paulberserker)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-the-big-debate-about-balrogs-and-wings/284169/7 "2005-01-11T09:16:37Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > Because it’s wonderfully opaque. Just previous to your quote there’s Then there is mention of balrogs flying to the aid of their master in an early age of Middle Earth, but then there’s the whole mater to falling to your death when you have wings to begin with. Which is true, but how would it use them in the fairly narrow (for the Balrogs size) chasm it and Gandalf fall down in Moria/Khazad-dum? Even when the chasm opens out towards the bottom, its still getting its arse handed to it by Gandalf before they hit the water and it turns into slime Balrog and they go up the Endless Stair. I don’t think it would have time to start flapping. I know, i’m going on the visual representation in the films and a bit from the books. I’d like to know how or if it turns back into fire Balrog from Slime once they’re on the top of mountain though. ---
**Author:** ![Hunter\_Hawk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/50afbb/32.png) [@Hunter\_Hawk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hunter_Hawk)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-the-big-debate-about-balrogs-and-wings/284169/8 "2005-01-11T10:33:39Z")
_As God is my witness, I thought balrogs could fly!!!_ ---
**Author:** ![Kizarvexius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/da6949/32.png) [@Kizarvexius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kizarvexius)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-the-big-debate-about-balrogs-and-wings/284169/9 "2005-01-11T17:11:01Z")
> [@Hunter Hawk](#): > > _As God is my witness, I thought balrogs could fly!!!_ Ouch! Ouch! Stop it! Must…not…start…laughing…uncontrollably…at…work! Hahahahahahohahahahehehehahohohehihohohoho!! Damn you. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-the-big-debate-about-balrogs-and-wings/284169/10 "2005-01-11T19:10:41Z")
_The balrogs are hitting the ground like sacks of wet cement!_ ---
**Author:** ![GargoyleWB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gargoylewb/32/199_2.png) [@GargoyleWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GargoyleWB)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-the-big-debate-about-balrogs-and-wings/284169/11 "2005-01-11T19:25:50Z")
_Oh, the humanity!_😃 ---
**Author:** ![Rufus\_Xavier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eada6e/32.png) [@Rufus\_Xavier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rufus_Xavier)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-the-big-debate-about-balrogs-and-wings/284169/12 "2005-01-11T21:02:55Z")
“…for those of you who just tuned in, the Pinedale Shopping Mall has just been bombed with live balrogs. Film at eleven.” ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-the-big-debate-about-balrogs-and-wings/284169/13 "2005-01-11T21:07:32Z")
> [@GargoyleWB](#): > > _Oh, the humanity!_😃 Balrogity, you mean. From the passage in question: > [@](#): > > His enemy halted again, facing him, and **the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings**. I always took this to mean that the Balrog is literally composed primarily of fire and shadow. It’s existence in Middle Earth was an abomination, or at the very least M.E. was not its natural habitat. On its home plane, the physical possibility exists that “shadow” is relevant as a structural material and can be used as wing material, just as it can join with fire to form the beast. Not physically possible in our experience, but certainly an horrible weapon and difficult to damage as it has little corporeal form. I can’t recall from the book, and maybe the movie is influencing my memory, but the whip seemed to be made of fire as well–no solids for Mr. Balrog, only searing heat and terrifying shadow. The beast is essentially without mass, barely with form, certainly not solid and thus invulnerable to normal weapons, perhaps awkward in a world of solid matter which would account for its apparent disorientation while falling–plus Gandalf is knocking the crap out of it all the while. I would assume that the balrog could spread its shadow to form wings, either for flight or concealment or to isolate an enemy. I’m askeered of Balrogses. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-the-big-debate-about-balrogs-and-wings/284169/14 "2005-01-11T21:16:57Z")
> [@Inigo Montoya](#): > > I always took this to mean that the Balrog is literally composed primarily of fire and shadow. It’s existence in Middle Earth was an abomination, or at the very least M.E. was not its natural habitat. On its home plane, the physical possibility exists that “shadow” is relevant as a structural material and can be used as wing material, just as it can join with fire to form the beast. Not physically possible in our experience, but certainly an horrible weapon and difficult to damage as it has little corporeal form. > > I can’t recall from the book, and maybe the movie is influencing my memory, but the whip seemed to be made of fire as well–no solids for Mr. Balrog, only searing heat and terrifying shadow. The beast is essentially without mass, barely with form, certainly not solid and thus invulnerable to normal weapons, perhaps awkward in a world of solid matter which would account for its apparent disorientation while falling–plus Gandalf is knocking the crap out of it all the while. This is how I always imagined the Balrog–a being of fire and shadow without a permanent physical form, indistinct and perhaps even taking shape more in the mind of it’s enemy than in the physical world. It might look like it has wings, it might look like it doesn’t, it might like a whirlwind in a furnace, maybe even to several different onlookers at the same time. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-the-big-debate-about-balrogs-and-wings/284169/15 "2005-01-11T21:34:22Z")
But a 20 ft tall blast furnance on legs with smoke and shadows works alright too. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-the-big-debate-about-balrogs-and-wings/284169/16 "2005-01-11T21:45:39Z")
I never understood the deabte myself but I guess it can be seen as a good platform for the literalists versus open interpretation. Gandalf schooled the Balrog but the Balrog still managed to kill Gandalf. I’d call it a draw. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-the-big-debate-about-balrogs-and-wings/284169/17 "2005-01-11T21:52:30Z")
> [@](#): > > Which is true, but how would it use them in the fairly narrow (for the Balrogs size) chasm it and Gandalf fall down in Moria/Khazad-dum? That’s at least the second known case of a balrog falling to its death. Way back in the First Age, in the exile from Gondolin, Glorfindel (yes, presumibly the same fellow who was or was not at the Fords in _Fellowship_) fought a Balrog in the mountain passes, with the end result being that both combatants fell to their deaths (interestingly, in the only other attested death of a Balrog, the fight between Gothmog and Ecthelion, both also die). We’re not told how wide was the valley into which Glorfindel’s 'rog fell, but it being outdoors, it was presumably wide enough for wingspread. **Inigo** ’s take on the matter is close to my own. In Tolkien’s world, the Balrogs were of an order of beings called the Maiar (also including the Wizards and Sauron, among others) who pre-existed the World and took part in its creation. In general, the Maiar donned physical forms much as we don clothing, and could go clad or unclad at will: The physical form is not an intrinsic part of a Maia (though some of the corrupted ones became trapped into a particular physical form). My understanding is that the substance of a Balrog is in some sense literally composed of flame and shadow, and to the extent that anything about a Balrog exists, its wings of shadow are literal wings. However, wings of shadow aren’t much good for locomoting a physical form, so I’m willing to suppose that a Balrog can only fly when unclad. ---
**Author:** ![Ponder\_Stibbons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponder_stibbons/32/343_2.png) [@Ponder\_Stibbons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponder_Stibbons)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2005, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-the-big-debate-about-balrogs-and-wings/284169/18 "2005-01-11T21:55:13Z")
Well, see when the Balrogs broke up and Pöl went his own way, he formed a band called Wings. Some fans of the old Balrogs, of course, never really thought Wings was worth much, while others were perhaps overly adulatious of the band merely because of Pöl’s presence. But for those of us from this seventh (IIRC) age of Middle Earth, the whole debate seems silly. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-the-big-debate-about-balrogs-and-wings/284169/19 "2005-01-12T00:54:16Z")
What **Chronos** said. Being Maiar, Balrogs could manifest wings if they wanted to, at least back in the beginning. But if they’re like their master, Melkor, they probably spent a lot of their power in malice, and sorta got locked into one form. I bet they got locked into wings which were inadequate for flying! ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-the-big-debate-about-balrogs-and-wings/284169/20 "2005-01-12T01:12:18Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > However, wings of shadow aren’t much good for locomoting a physical form, so I’m willing to suppose that a Balrog can only fly when unclad. And from this, can we deduce the air speed of an unladen Balrog? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-the-big-debate-about-balrogs-and-wings/284169.md?page=2)