# LOTR: Why the big debate about Balrogs and wings? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 11, 2005, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-the-big-debate-about-balrogs-and-wings/284169 "2005-01-11T04:52:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-the-big-debate-about-balrogs-and-wings/284169/41 "2005-01-12T23:32:17Z")
> [@Inigo Montoya](#): > > So if humans aren’t reborn, and elves are, what of crossbreeds? I believe (and someone will correct me momentarily) none of the half-elven that chose elvishness ever died. But this (like Polycarp’s example) is an extremely small sample – we don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-the-big-debate-about-balrogs-and-wings/284169/42 "2005-01-12T23:40:24Z")
Well, let’s hash this out. Of the true Peredhil (not counting the legendary (in the small-“l” sense) minor half-elves), only Eärendil, Elwing and Elrond chose immortality. Elros (Tar-Minyatur, the first King of Numenor) and all of Elrond’s children appear to have chosen to remain in Middle-Earth and die as Men (although the ultimate choice of Elladan and Elrohir is sketchily told at best and not well supported in either direction). So we have three of the Peredhil choosing Elf-hood (so to speak) and four choosing humanity. And of course there’s the Elven legend that Tuor reached the Blessed Land with Idril and was granted immortality due to his natural nobility and genuine love for all things Elvish. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2005, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-the-big-debate-about-balrogs-and-wings/284169/43 "2005-01-12T23:59:02Z")
:eek: > [@Polycarp](#): > > They are required to choose which Kindred they will belong to, and live out the life appropriate to that Kindred. That’s an enormous piece of why the Elrond-Arwen-Aragorn tension is what it is; Arwen is choosing the opposite Kindred from what her father had chosen 6,500 years before. Which brings up a union which kind of icks me out. Because Aragorn is a decendent of Elrond’s human _brother_. That would make Him and Arwen like, first cousins wouldn’t it? Eeeeew! ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-the-big-debate-about-balrogs-and-wings/284169/44 "2005-01-13T00:01:26Z")
> [@Inigo Montoya](#): > > :eek: > Which brings up a union which kind of icks me out. Because Aragorn is a decendent of Elrond’s human _brother_. That would make Him and Arwen like, first cousins wouldn’t it? Eeeeew! First cousins (what was it you guys figured out, **Qadgop**? 61?) 61 times removed. Which, if you think about it, is a further relation than FDR actually had to Eleanor… ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-the-big-debate-about-balrogs-and-wings/284169/45 "2005-01-13T00:28:16Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > further relation than FDR actually had to Eleanor… Now _that_ would be anyone in a wheelchair… ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-the-big-debate-about-balrogs-and-wings/284169/46 "2005-01-13T01:16:16Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > First cousins (what was it you guys figured out, **Qadgop**? 61?) 61 times removed. First cousins 62 times removed. From this thread: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=294409&page=2&](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=294409&page=2&) That’s barely even related, in human terms. Of course, doubtless there was some inbreeding among the Numenoreans and the later Dunedain. But still. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-the-big-debate-about-balrogs-and-wings/284169/47 "2005-01-13T01:26:04Z")
> [@Qadgop the Mercotan](#): > > First cousins 62 times removed. From this thread: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=294409&page=2&](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=294409&page=2&) > > That’s barely even related, in human terms. > > Of course, doubtless there was some inbreeding among the Numenoreans and the later Dunedain. But still. I was close! And there are states in the present USA, in modern times, that allow first cousin marriages, anyway… ---
**Author:** ![emekthian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecae2f/32.png) [@emekthian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emekthian)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-the-big-debate-about-balrogs-and-wings/284169/48 "2005-01-13T01:31:44Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > First cousins (what was it you guys figured out, **Qadgop**? 61?) 61 times removed. Which, if you think about it, is a further relation than FDR actually had to Eleanor… Assuming that Valandil is of the same generation as Tar-Aldarion, that Amandil is the same genearation as Tar-Palantir, and Elendil the same as Ar-Pharazôn, and assuming one generation of the line of Kings of Númenor corresponds to one generation of the Lords of Andúnië, Aragorn is Arwen’s 1st cousin 63 times removed. ---
**Author:** ![emekthian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecae2f/32.png) [@emekthian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emekthian)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-the-big-debate-about-balrogs-and-wings/284169/49 "2005-01-13T01:37:21Z")
Whoops! Counted Elendil twice (once as part of Ar-Pharazôn’s generation, then as the first king of Arnor three pages later)! It’s 62. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-the-big-debate-about-balrogs-and-wings/284169/50 "2005-01-13T01:42:43Z")
> [@emekthian](#): > > Assuming that Valandil is of the same generation as Tar-Aldarion, that Amandil is the same genearation as Tar-Palantir, and Elendil the same as Ar-Pharazôn, and assuming one generation of the line of Kings of Númenor corresponds to one generation of the Lords of Andúnië, Aragorn is Arwen’s 1st cousin 63 times removed. Don’t make that last assumption. Just go by the the list of lords of Andunie here: [http://web.ukonline.co.uk/rwf.downing/snumen.htm](http://web.ukonline.co.uk/rwf.downing/snumen.htm) Ar-Pharazon was the 24th and last king of Numenor. Elendil with the 19th and last Lord of Andunië. The first lord of Andunië (Valandil) was of the same generation as the 6th King of Numenor (Tar-Aldarion). So there was 1 generation slippage between the lines, leading to 62 times removed. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-the-big-debate-about-balrogs-and-wings/284169/51 "2005-01-13T02:09:23Z")
Oh god, did I open up a can of worms!!! Another question I have-if Elves die in Middle-Earth, not from choosing to remain mortal, but from say, a wound, or from pining away, do their spirits still get to go to the Undying Lands, or do they dwell where human souls dwell? ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-the-big-debate-about-balrogs-and-wings/284169/52 "2005-01-13T02:57:16Z")
No matter where they die, elven spirits go to the halls of Mandos where they exist for a long period as spirits. Eventually they are reborn. Spirits of men pass to Mandos and then go elsewhere but no one knows where. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-the-big-debate-about-balrogs-and-wings/284169/53 "2005-01-13T02:59:47Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Oh god, did I open up a can of worms!!! > > Another question I have-if Elves die in Middle-Earth, not from choosing to remain mortal, but from say, a wound, or from pining away, do their spirits still get to go to the Undying Lands, or do they dwell where human souls dwell? Their spirits go to Mandos in the undying lands. There they may eventually be re-embodied and then get to hang out with their kin and the powers in Valinor. It seems Glorfindel was the exceptional case that got to go back to Middle-Earth after getting his new bod. The spirits of humans go to Mandos only briefly, then off to points unknown (at least to the elves. Eru knows, and perhaps Manwë and Namo). They don’t get to hang out in Valinor outside of Mandos. Beren and Luthien were notable in being the only mortals to ever return from Mandos and walk again among the living of any kind. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-the-big-debate-about-balrogs-and-wings/284169/54 "2005-01-13T03:20:45Z")
However, although all Aragorn’s relatives have bitten the dust, remember that Arwen’s father and two or three of her grandparents can attend the wedding – depending on when they had it, both date and time of day. Since her mother Celebrian was slain by orcs, she obviously can’t be there (hanging out in Mandos’ house, no doubt). But Celebrian’s parents, Galadriel and Celeborn, certainly can, unless they don’t tie the knot until after the Ringbearers set sail. And if it’s scheduled for dawn or dusk, her paternal grandfather can at least watch from above! ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-the-big-debate-about-balrogs-and-wings/284169/55 "2005-01-13T03:22:57Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Since her mother Celebrian was slain by orcs Bzzzzt! That’s incorrect! She was captured and tormented by orcs before being rescued by her sons. Afterwards she no longer enjoyed Middle-Earth, so set out for Valinor. She lives bodily in the Undying Lands, and hasn’t come to Mandos yet. At least not by the end of the 3rd age, according to JRRT. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-the-big-debate-about-balrogs-and-wings/284169/56 "2005-01-13T03:56:53Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Another question I have Quit encouraging these people. Consider if they put all this gray matter to work on something impor…er, more imp…er, **as** important, like curing cancer, or brewing an alcohol free beer that tastes good. Chill out an read _Bored of the Rings_. Seriously, what is the source for you guys, the Silmarillion? It sure as hell ain’t _Farmer Giles_ or _Leaf by Niggle_, which is about what, anyway? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-the-big-debate-about-balrogs-and-wings/284169/57 "2005-01-13T04:21:33Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Seriously, what is the source for you guys, the Silmarillion? It sure as hell ain’t _Farmer Giles_ or _Leaf by Niggle_, which is about what, anyway? Hehe…the Silmarillion, LotR, the Hobbit, Book of Lost Tales, Unfinished Tales, HOMES. _Farmer Giles_ is about a bucolic farmer who inherits a magical sword and beards a dragon in his lair…sort of. And _Leaf by Niggle_ is an allegory about how much of the inconvenience caused by others in one’s life is actually God bettering you through them. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-the-big-debate-about-balrogs-and-wings/284169/58 "2005-01-13T04:22:50Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > _Farmer Giles_ is about a bucolic farmer who inherits a magical sword and beards a dragon in his lair…sort of. > > And _Leaf by Niggle_ is an allegory about how much of the inconvenience caused by others in one’s life is actually God bettering you through them. And neither of those last two is set in Middle-Earth, anyway. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Scissorjack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@Scissorjack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scissorjack)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-the-big-debate-about-balrogs-and-wings/284169/59 "2005-01-13T08:33:15Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > And _Leaf by Niggle_ is an allegory about how much of the inconvenience caused by others in one’s life is actually God bettering you through them. I thought Tolkien had repudiated allegory wholesale: " But I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence." {from the Foreword to **LOTR** } ---
**Author:** ![Rube\_E.Tewesday](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f0a364/32.png) [@Rube\_E.Tewesday](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rube_E.Tewesday)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-the-big-debate-about-balrogs-and-wings/284169/60 "2005-01-13T13:43:58Z")
> [@Case Sensitive](#): > > I thought Tolkien had repudiated allegory wholesale: " But I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence." {from the Foreword to **LOTR** } Yeah, he said that all right. But all the same, _Leaf by Niggle_ is textbook allegory. Writers are complicated. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-the-big-debate-about-balrogs-and-wings/284169.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-the-big-debate-about-balrogs-and-wings/284169.md?page=4)