# LOTR: Why the big debate about Balrogs and wings? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 11, 2005, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-the-big-debate-about-balrogs-and-wings/284169 "2005-01-11T04:52:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-the-big-debate-about-balrogs-and-wings/284169/61 "2005-01-13T13:59:36Z")
Also, _Farmer Giles of Ham_ is a parody of the fantasy genre, just as a word of warning if you go looking for it. It’s the converse of LotR, written just after and containing many affectionate jabs at the genre (and one that pokes fun at his own specialty, linguistics) that would have been wholly inappropriate in the middle of the epic. ---
**Author:** ![Ponder\_Stibbons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponder_stibbons/32/343_2.png) [@Ponder\_Stibbons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponder_Stibbons)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-the-big-debate-about-balrogs-and-wings/284169/62 "2005-01-13T14:02:45Z")
> [@Rube E. Tewesday](#): > > Yeah, he said that all right. But all the same, _Leaf by Niggle_ is textbook allegory. Writers are complicated. Perhaps he wrote it in order to show people why he disliked allegory so much? ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-the-big-debate-about-balrogs-and-wings/284169/63 "2005-01-13T14:24:11Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Chill out an read _Bored of the Rings_. Tim! Tim! Benzedrine! Hash! Boo! Valvoline! Clean! Clean! Clean for Gene! First, second, neutral, park! Hie thee hence you leafy narc! ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-the-big-debate-about-balrogs-and-wings/284169/64 "2005-01-13T14:27:27Z")
> [@Qadgop the Mercotan](#): > > Tim! Tim! Benzedrine! > Hash! Boo! Valvoline! > Clean! Clean! Clean for Gene! > First, second, neutral, park! > Hie thee hence you leafy narc! BTW, that curse was directed at a certain carnivorous plant in “Bored of the Rings” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-the-big-debate-about-balrogs-and-wings/284169/65 "2005-01-13T15:03:17Z")
> [@Qadgop the Mercotan](#): > > BTW, that curse was directed at a certain carnivorous plant in “Bored of the Rings” > > 😃 Sometimes life hands you the **perfect** straight line… 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-the-big-debate-about-balrogs-and-wings/284169/66 "2005-01-13T15:07:16Z")
Heh! The only problem with _Bored of the Rings_ (and pretty much any Harvard Lampoon publication) is that the humor tends to get very dated. “Clean for Gene”? Is there any average person under the age of 40 who actually remembers Eugene McCarthy, let alone remembers one of his weirder campaign slogans? ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-the-big-debate-about-balrogs-and-wings/284169/67 "2005-01-13T15:19:50Z")
It is worth it for such classic lines as (Tim?) ‘Tom Benzedrine’s Old Lady’ ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-the-big-debate-about-balrogs-and-wings/284169/68 "2005-01-13T15:34:20Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > It is worth it for such classic lines as (Tim?) ‘Tom Benzedrine’s Old Lady’ Tim. He was almost certainly meant to represent Timothy Leary. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-the-big-debate-about-balrogs-and-wings/284169/69 "2005-01-13T15:45:13Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > However, although all Aragorn’s relatives have bitten the dust, remember that Arwen’s father and two or three of her grandparents can attend the wedding – depending on when they had it, both date and time of day. Her brothers can also attend. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-the-big-debate-about-balrogs-and-wings/284169/70 "2005-01-13T15:47:45Z")
It’s at the end of his arm…it must be a hand. Kodak khaki no-doz! Aieee! A Ballhog! don’t get me started… ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-the-big-debate-about-balrogs-and-wings/284169/71 "2005-01-13T15:55:00Z")
Do the part about the Thesaurus and the Faggot. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-the-big-debate-about-balrogs-and-wings/284169/72 "2005-01-13T16:00:13Z")
dribble, dribble, dribble, fake, dribble, fake, dribble, shoot, swish! “Aieeeeee!” cried Legolam. “A Ballhog!” ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-the-big-debate-about-balrogs-and-wings/284169/73 "2005-01-13T16:02:30Z")
What, am I here to perform tricks for you? All I remember about the Thesaurus was that he had a pronounced gazeteer. Somebody was brandishing a burning faggot. “You dieth, GI” cried the faggot. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-the-big-debate-about-balrogs-and-wings/284169/74 "2005-01-13T16:03:52Z")
> [@Qadgop the Mercotan](#): > > dribble, dribble, dribble, fake, dribble, fake, dribble, shoot, swish! > > “Aieeeeee!” cried Legolam. “A Ballhog!” What were the cruel runes on the Ballhog’s chest? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-the-big-debate-about-balrogs-and-wings/284169/75 "2005-01-13T16:05:36Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > What were the cruel runes on the Ballhog’s chest? Wasn’t it “Villanova”? ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-the-big-debate-about-balrogs-and-wings/284169/76 "2005-01-13T16:18:47Z")
And so we circle back to Balrogs…sort of. I love this place. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-the-big-debate-about-balrogs-and-wings/284169/77 "2005-01-13T16:38:23Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Wasn’t it “Villanova”? Either that or “Kelvinator”. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-the-big-debate-about-balrogs-and-wings/284169/78 "2005-01-13T16:53:59Z")
“Villanova” is correct. “Kelvinator” was on Tim Benzedrine’s amulet. This site has lots of BOTR excerpts! [http://www.baumannfamily.com/bored/](http://www.baumannfamily.com/bored/) ---
**Author:** ![Rube\_E.Tewesday](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f0a364/32.png) [@Rube\_E.Tewesday](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rube_E.Tewesday)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-the-big-debate-about-balrogs-and-wings/284169/79 "2005-01-13T17:30:08Z")
> [@Ponder Stibbons](#): > > Perhaps he wrote it in order to show people why he disliked allegory so much? Possible, I suppose. I can’t figure out why my kid does things, let alone a writer from a different country who died when I was in high school. All the same, your theory seems unlikely. AFAICT, _Leaf by Niggle_ is an allegory containing a lot of standard Roman Catholic doctrine. Tolkien was a devout RC, and I can’t imagine him deliberately sending up something he took very seriously. Maybe he just felt like trying out something new, to see how he could do in a non-congenial area. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2005, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-the-big-debate-about-balrogs-and-wings/284169/80 "2005-01-13T17:42:20Z")
> [@Rube E. Tewesday](#): > > Possible, I suppose. I can’t figure out why my kid does things, let alone a writer from a different country who died when I was in high school. All the same, your theory seems unlikely. AFAICT, _Leaf by Niggle_ is an allegory containing a lot of standard Roman Catholic doctrine. Tolkien was a devout RC, and I can’t imagine him deliberately sending up something he took very seriously. Maybe he just felt like trying out something new, to see how he could do in a non-congenial area. Except that _Leaf by Niggle_ is hardly Tolkien’s only allegory. _Smith of Wooton Major_ is allegorical down to its ickle toesies, too. None of the Middle-Earth books, however, is. The feel is entirely different. You can tell quite easily that the events in M-E were intended to have actually happened, as opposed to being misty moral-in-a-box allegories like _LbyN_ and _SoWM_. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-the-big-debate-about-balrogs-and-wings/284169.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-the-big-debate-about-balrogs-and-wings/284169.md?page=5)