# LOTR: why was Denethor such a dick? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 27, 2017, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-was-denethor-such-a-dick/785391 "2017-04-27T20:25:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2017, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-was-denethor-such-a-dick/785391/21 "2017-04-28T14:18:26Z")
True, though Théoden also shows the ability of Sauron to corrupt men, even without direct contact. Théoden is corrupted by Wormtongue who is not in contact with Sauron in any way. He is, instead, an easily corruptible hanger-on to Saruman who HAS been directly corrupted by Sauron. Saruman’s downfall is his desire for knowledge of ringlore. Even knowing too much about the one ring is enough to corrupt one of the most powerful beings in Middle Earth. That’s Sauron’s a tough bastard, gotta admit. Still, it leaves the question open: how well would Théoden have stood up if he’d gone mind-on-mind with Sauron instead of being corrupted through a daisy chain of people? Still, once thrown out of his ennui, Théoden rises to the occasion of his times magnificently. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2017, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-was-denethor-such-a-dick/785391/22 "2017-04-28T14:31:01Z")
> [@Lasciel](#): > > (boooring, and Tolkien really wasn’t into the whole “glorifying death in battle” nonsense after his personal experiences), Well, except for Boromir & Theoden. ---
**Author:** ![Lasciel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e79b87/32.png) [@Lasciel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lasciel)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2017, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-was-denethor-such-a-dick/785391/23 "2017-04-28T14:42:34Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > Well, except for Boromir & Theoden. I would contest that neither of those deaths are glorified, but are presented in a very clear light as incredibly sad and wasteful and horrible, although necessary to protect others or defend freedom. Much different from a lot of the propaganda and “wishful thinking” treatments of death and dying on the battlefield which were intended to make the survivors back home feel better about the war and about having lived through it while others did not. ---
**Author:** ![Sangahyando](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f14d63/32.png) [@Sangahyando](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sangahyando)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2017, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-was-denethor-such-a-dick/785391/24 "2017-04-28T14:50:34Z")
> [@Filbert](#): > > Obligatory nitpick- it’s mentioned that Faramir can remember his mother, if dimly. Given that he’s not Princess Leia, she presumably didn’t die giving birth to him. According to Tolkien’s Appendices A and B to LOTR: Faramir and Boromir’s mother, Finduilas, was from Dol Amroth on the coast (seat of LOTR itself’s Prince Imrahil). Although Denethor greatly loved her in his dour way – she was unhappy in the bleak city of Minas Tirith, with its military-camp-like atmosphere, and situated far inland; and with the perennial oppressive menace of Mordor not far off to the east. The effect of all this contributed to shortening her life; she died when Faramir was aged five, and Boromir ten. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2017, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-was-denethor-such-a-dick/785391/25 "2017-04-28T15:17:53Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > **DsYoungEsq** , great writeup, but I don’t think Denethor thought the stewards should become kings. He still revered the memory and power of the old kings, even if he thought Aragorn was not a qualified replacement. Letting the stewards declare themselves kings would be an insult to Gondor. From Faramir’s conversation with Frodo: I have always read that statement from him differently. I read it as being a statement filled with private resentment. He’s not someone who ever wants to see the line of Isildur re-established. He’s someone who thinks that the line of Isildur is no longer relevant, and resents that, despite being at some level descended from Anárion, he’s not allowed to be king. > [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Faramir - Is, by Tolkein’s writing, the only reason to show that the race of man - not the dunedain, but the rest - and worthy of saving. He is a white, marble hero. Because he’s so filled with nobility - “by some chance the blood of the old race ran nearly pure in him” (quote approx.) - he is able to overcome the temptation of power of the ring, even promising Frodo - sight unseen - that he wouldn’t use it if he found it in the road. And he sticks to that promise - in the book, at least - when he discovers what Frodo’s carrying. I agree with your analysis of Faramir; those who will recall my past posts on this know it’s one of my pet peeves with Peter Jackson’s movies, that he has Faramir actually try to take Frodo to Denethor, thus negating his position as the reason Gandalf trust mankind. But I will nitpick: your quote about the blood of the old race is actually a statement by Gandalf about **Denethor** , > [@Gandalf](#): > > He is not as other men of this time…by some chance the blood of Westernesse runs nearly true in him, as it does in his other son, Faramir, and yet did not in Boromir. He has long sight. He can perceive, if he bends his will thither, much of what is passing in the minds of men, even of those that dwell far off. It is difficult to deceive him, and dangerous to try. So Denethor is Faramir, minus the idealism. > [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Théoden is corrupted by Wormtongue who is not in contact with Sauron in any way. He is, instead, an easily corruptible hanger-on to Saruman who HAS been directly corrupted by Sauron. Saruman’s downfall is his desire for knowledge of ringlore. Even knowing too much about the one ring is enough to corrupt one of the most powerful beings in Middle Earth. That’s Sauron’s a tough bastard, gotta admit. Nitpick: Wormtongue probably ensnares Théoden before Saruman becomes Sauron’s ally. The timeline is not totally clear, but IIRC, Saruman really doesn’t become Sauron’s ally until right before Gandalf is trapped in early July of 3018. However, Grima has been subverting Théoden for a longer period than that, presumably as part of Saruman’s own machinations for power. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2017, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-was-denethor-such-a-dick/785391/26 "2017-04-28T15:24:23Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > Letting the stewards declare themselves kings would be an insult to Gondor. And an acknowledgment that old king Earworm had in fact been killed or enslaved by the Witch-King. ---
**Author:** ![Airk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de053/32.png) [@Airk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airk)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2017, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-was-denethor-such-a-dick/785391/27 "2017-04-28T15:28:09Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Still, it leaves the question open: how well would Théoden have stood up if he’d gone mind-on-mind with Sauron instead of being corrupted through a daisy chain of people? I think this is sortof an irrelevant question, because Theoden, unlike Denethor, would not have such arrogance. The Rohirrim may pride themselves on their deeds of arms, and certainly, Theoden might lead a doomed cavalry charge against Sauron, but they don’t have the trust of magic or the overweening arrogance that let Denethor do this. > [@muldoonthief](#): > > Well, except for Boromir & Theoden. Boromir’s death is certainly not glorified. It’s presented as his redemption, sure, but that’s because he dies doing the right thing, not because he dies in battle. Theoden, frankly, dies kindof ignominiously - he has his moment of glory, and then he’s suddenly killed by circumstances that are frankly, beyond his control. It’s not a glorious death, and he is celebrated entirely for what he accomplished beforehand, for standing tall and, again doing what is right in coming to the aid of Gondor. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2017, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-was-denethor-such-a-dick/785391/28 "2017-04-28T15:35:24Z")
I guess I’m missing what it means to have a “glorified” death. Can you guys provide a counterexample from another source? Boromir killed over 20 orcs, his companions stacked the broken weapons of his enemies at his feet at his “burial”, then sang songs as his boat sailed off. And Theoden’s charge frankly reads as impressive as anything I’ve ever read. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2017, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-was-denethor-such-a-dick/785391/29 "2017-04-28T15:39:53Z")
Boromir killed a bunch of orcs to save the hobbits, but he wouldn’t have had to die at all if his hubris hadn’t led to his corruption by the ring. It was a disaster of his own making. ---
**Author:** ![Airk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de053/32.png) [@Airk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airk)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2017, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-was-denethor-such-a-dick/785391/30 "2017-04-28T17:26:59Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > I guess I’m missing what it means to have a “glorified” death. Can you guys provide a counterexample from another source? Boromir killed over 20 orcs, his companions stacked the broken weapons of his enemies at his feet at his “burial”, then sang songs as his boat sailed off. And Theoden’s charge frankly reads as impressive as anything I’ve ever read. Short version: It means to heap praise upon them because they died in battle. Boromir doesn’t get a lot of praise at all, just, basically, forgiveness. Theoden gets some, but it’s basically for his personal triumphs (overcoming his doubts and his darkness), and not for dying in battle. You will observe that in both cases, their death was functionally pointless in terms of whether it altered the events of the story, unless you count Theoden’s death bringing the Witch King up against Eowyn - which is not a function of anything he did at all. And none of this has anything to do with doing your best to honor the fallen. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2017, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-was-denethor-such-a-dick/785391/31 "2017-04-28T20:01:39Z")
> [@Sangahyando](#): > > Finduilas, was from Dol Amroth on the coast (seat of LOTR itself’s Prince Imrahil). At one point one of the Fellowship meets Imrahil, and notes that there is clearly elf-blood flowing in his veins. But, according to the Appendices, there were only three unions of the Edain and the Eldar: Luthien and Beren, Tuor and Idril, and Arwen and Aragon. So, how did Prince Imarahil acquire the elf-blood flowing in his veins?? ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2017, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-was-denethor-such-a-dick/785391/32 "2017-04-28T20:01:45Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > Since we’re on the topic, the movie changed what Gondor knew about Aragorn. In the books, Boromir had no idea that such a person as Aragorn or Isildur’s heir even existed. But in the movie, he clearly had heard of Aragorn and knew had at least a potential claim on Gondor’s throne, but was surprised to find he was just a “scruffy ranger”. I don’t remember how much Borimir knew, but Imrahil, prince of Dol Amroth, recognized Aragorn’s name immediately, and acknowledged his kingship the moment he heard that Aragorn was in the country. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2017, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-was-denethor-such-a-dick/785391/33 "2017-04-28T20:11:15Z")
> [@BrotherCadfael](#): > > At one point one of the Fellowship meets Imrahil, and notes that there is clearly elf-blood flowing in his veins. > > But, according to the Appendices, there were only three unions of the Edain and the Eldar: Luthien and Beren, Tuor and Idril, and Arwen and Aragon. > > So, how did Prince Imarahil acquire the elf-blood flowing in his veins?? > **[Gondor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dol_Amroth)** > > Gondor is a fictional kingdom in J. R. R. Tolkien's writings, described as the greatest realm of Men in the west of Middle-earth at the end of the Third Age. The third volume of The Lord of the Rings, The Return of the King, is largely concerned with the events in Gondor during the War of the Ring and with the restoration of the realm afterward. The history of the kingdom is outlined in the appendices of the book. > Gondor was founded by the brothers Isildur and Anárion, exiles from the downfal... > [@](#): > > Tolkien gives two differing accounts of the origin of Imrahil’s line, both in Unfinished Tales. > > In the earlier account,[22] the line was founded, according to “the tradition of [the] house”, by Imrazôr the Númenórean and the Elven-lady Mithrellas, one of Nimrodel’s Silvan companions. Imrazôr lived in Belfalas around T.A. 2000 and had two children: a boy Galador and a girl Gilmith. Shortly thereafter Mithrellas is said to have vanished in the night. Galador, according to this tradition, became the first Lord of Dol Amroth.[23] > > Although this account does not appear explicitly in The Lord of the Rings, it figures in the perception of Imrahil by the people of Minas Tirith: “Belike the old tales speak well; there is Elvish blood in the veins of that folk, for the people of Nimrodel dwelt in that land once long ago”,[24] as well as in the accolade from Legolas upon meeting Imrahil: “It is long since the people of Nimrodel left the woodlands of Lórien, and yet still one may see that not all sailed from Amroth’s haven west over water.”[25] Tolkien began in fact to work out a genealogical table linking Galador with Imrahil, but he abandoned it after getting little farther than assigning dates to the mostly blank spaces in between.[26] > > The second account[9] belongs, according to Christopher Tolkien[27] to the late writings, undertaken well after the publication of The Lord of the Rings, when Tolkien turned to exploring the early history of Gondor and Rohan. Here Tolkien says that the title of “Prince” was given to the line of Dol Amroth by Elendil himself; this was the family that had led the original Númenórean colonisation. The Adrahil of Dol Amroth who fought with Calimehtar against the Wainriders[8] in T.A. 1944 (predating both Imrazôr and the death of Amroth) probably also belongs to this version. Christopher adds to the note that while it is not impossible to forge some consistency between the two versions, they likely represent two independent accounts of the origin of the house. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2017, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-was-denethor-such-a-dick/785391/34 "2017-04-28T23:44:07Z")
> [@BrotherCadfael](#): > > At one point one of the Fellowship meets Imrahil, and notes that there is clearly elf-blood flowing in his veins. > > But, according to the Appendices, there were only three unions of the Edain and the Eldar: Luthien and Beren, Tuor and Idril, and Arwen and Aragon. > > So, how did Prince Imarahil acquire the elf-blood flowing in his veins?? I think that the claim about the Edain and the Eldar should be considered not to include any possible union of men with the Silvan elves (those who turned back at the Misty Mountains and never continued). That would allow for a union between the elves of Nimrodel and humans in Gondor, after the Elves of Nimrodel had moved south, following the wakening of the Balrog in Moria. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2017, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-was-denethor-such-a-dick/785391/35 "2017-04-29T00:07:05Z")
> [@mbh](#): > > I don’t remember how much Borimir knew, but Imrahil, prince of Dol Amroth, recognized Aragorn’s name immediately, and acknowledged his kingship the moment he heard that Aragorn was in the country. In the book, no. Imrahil, like everyone else, finds out about Aragorn when he unfurls the banner of the kingship on the lead ship sailing into the Harlond during the Battle of Pelennor Fields. Then, Imrahil leads the the forces of Gondor East from the city, while Éomer drives South with the Rohirrim, to meet the forces led by Aragorn north from the quays. They meet in the middle of the battle (the meeting of Imrahil with Aragorn is not described, only the meeting of Aragorn and Éomer), and finish off the forces of evil. Then, as evening is falling, they ride to Minas Tirith. At the gate, Aragorn refuses to enter as the King-claimant. Éomer questions this, noting that he has already raised the standard of kingship, but Imrahil counsels caution, warning that Denethor will not be pleased to see Aragorn. Of course, they don’t know that Denethor is dead. Later, in the Houses of Healing, Aragorn makes a surprise arrival, having been called for by Gandalf. At that point, given that Faramir is in no condition to act as Steward, Aragorn suggests that Imrahil take control of the city for the time being. At no point does Imrahil indicate that he was aware that there WAS a living claimant, let alone that Aragorn was his name. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2017, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-was-denethor-such-a-dick/785391/36 "2017-04-29T22:11:59Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > I think that the claim about the Edain and the Eldar should be considered not to include any possible union of men with the Silvan elves (those who turned back at the Misty Mountains and never continued). That would allow for a union between the elves of Nimrodel and humans in Gondor, after the Elves of Nimrodel had moved south, following the wakening of the Balrog in Moria. Yes. While Orome (damn the diacritics) did address all of the newly-awakened Elves as Eldar, it quickly came to mean only those who went West (the Vanyar, the Noldor and the Teleri). Imrahil’s elven ancestor could very well be Silvan or Sindarin, even. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2017, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-was-denethor-such-a-dick/785391/37 "2017-04-30T00:37:34Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Yes. While Orome (damn the diacritics) did address all of the newly-awakened Elves as Eldar, it quickly came to mean only those who went West (the Vanyar, the Noldor and the Teleri). Imrahil’s elven ancestor could very well be Silvan or Sindarin, even. I believe that Tolkien consistently referred to the Sindar as Eldar. They just weren’t Calaquendi. ---
**Author:** ![Apocalypso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Apocalypso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apocalypso)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2017, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-was-denethor-such-a-dick/785391/38 "2017-05-01T14:20:33Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > He is of the opinion that his country is the most important political entity in Middle Earth, because it’s the last country that is ruled by his Very Important People (the Dúnedain, “Men of the West”). Sorry to nitpick, but I thought the Dúnedain were the “rangers” who were the ancestors of Isildur? They were hiding (or at least remaining inconspicuous) in the north. Denethor was the ancestor of the stewards of Gondor, and his line went back thousands of years, but were not Dúnedain. Please correct me if I’m wrong. Your post is otherwise very informative and seems correct. I’m overdue for my re-reading of all the Tolkien books, I think I’m going to start today… ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2017, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-was-denethor-such-a-dick/785391/39 "2017-05-01T14:48:59Z")
Dúnedain is the Sindarian term for the Quenyan Númenórean. It was a general term for those making up the Northern and Southern kingdoms descended from those that had escaped the drowning of Númenór. You are right though, that by the time of the war of the ring, the term tended to be in reference to the surviving members of Elendil’s kingdom in the north. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2017, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-was-denethor-such-a-dick/785391/40 "2017-05-01T15:01:20Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > Dúnedain is the Sindarian term for the Quenyan Númenórean. It was a general term for those making up the Northern and Southern kingdoms descended from those that had escaped the drowning of Númenór. > You are right though, that by the time of the war of the ring, the term tended to be in reference to the surviving members of Elendil’s kingdom in the north. Tolkein/Frodo specifically referred to them as the “Dunedain of the South”, when Frodo & Sam were captured by Faramir’s men in Ithilien: > [@](#): > > To his amazement, as he listened Frodo became aware that it was the Elven-tongue that they spoke, or one but little different; and he looked at them with wonder, for he knew then that they must be Dúnedain of the South, men of the line of the Lords of Westernesse. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-was-denethor-such-a-dick/785391.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-was-denethor-such-a-dick/785391.md?page=3)