# LOTR: why was Denethor such a dick? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 27, 2017, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-was-denethor-such-a-dick/785391 "2017-04-27T20:25:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2017, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-was-denethor-such-a-dick/785391/41 "2017-05-01T15:01:50Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > And an acknowledgment that old king Earworm had in fact been killed or enslaved by the Witch-King. I will personally vouch that old king Earworm lives on; I hear his songs with alarming frequency! ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2017, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-was-denethor-such-a-dick/785391/42 "2017-05-01T16:36:50Z")
> [@Apocalypso](#): > > Sorry to nitpick, but I thought the Dúnedain were the “rangers” who were the ancestors of Isildur? They were hiding (or at least remaining inconspicuous) in the north. Denethor was the ancestor of the stewards of Gondor, and his line went back thousands of years, but were not Dúnedain. Please correct me if I’m wrong. I think you mean “descendants” and “descendant”. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_Sams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/779978/32.png) [@Dale\_Sams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_Sams)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2017, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-was-denethor-such-a-dick/785391/43 "2017-05-01T17:35:15Z")
So not only has Stephen Colbert cloned himself…they all meet in one spot to chatter about LotR. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2017, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-was-denethor-such-a-dick/785391/44 "2017-05-01T22:07:24Z")
> [@Apocalypso](#): > > Sorry to nitpick, but I thought the Dúnedain were the “rangers” who were the ancestors of Isildur? They were hiding (or at least remaining inconspicuous) in the north. Denethor was the ancestor of the stewards of Gondor, and his line went back thousands of years, but were not Dúnedain. Please correct me if I’m wrong. Your post is otherwise very informative and seems correct. > > I’m overdue for my re-reading of all the Tolkien books, I think I’m going to start today… The term “Dúnedain” means the Númenoreans. It comes from “dun” (West) and “edain” (plural of “adan”, man; hence, men). “Men of the West” would be a good translation; Tolkien uses “Westernesse” to translate the name “Númenor”, so you could also translate it “Men of Westernesse”. The term in Westron was “Adûn”, but that’s rare, apparently. It’s unclear as I recall whether or not the Númenoreans who settled along the shores of Middle-Earth in the Second Age were called Dúnedain by the inhabitants who spoke Sindarin or not. But it clearly applies to both the North and South kingdoms equally. “Ranger”, of course, is solely applied to the Dúnedain of the North Kingdom after that kingdom falls to the “Witch-king” of Angmar. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-was-denethor-such-a-dick/785391/45 "2017-05-02T00:13:56Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > The term “Dúnedain” means the Númenoreans. It comes from “dun” (West) and “edain” (plural of “adan”, man; hence, men). “Men of the West” would be a good translation; Tolkien uses “Westernesse” to translate the name “Númenor”, so you could also translate it “Men of Westernesse”. The term in Westron was “Adûn”, but that’s rare, apparently. > > It’s unclear as I recall whether or not the Númenoreans who settled along the shores of Middle-Earth in the Second Age were called Dúnedain by the inhabitants who spoke Sindarin or not. But it clearly applies to both the North and South kingdoms equally. > > “Ranger”, of course, is solely applied to the Dúnedain of the North Kingdom after that kingdom falls to the “Witch-king” of Angmar. Well, not quite - the sentences after what I quoted above: > [@](#): > > After a while he spoke to them; but they were slow and cautious in answering. They named themselves Mablung and Damrod, soldiers of Gondor, and they were Rangers of Ithilien; for they were descended from folk who lived in Ithilien at one time, before it was overrun. From such men the Lord Denethor chose his forayers, who crossed the Anduin secretly (how or where, they would not say) to harry the Orcs and other enemies that roamed between the Ephel Dúath and the River. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-was-denethor-such-a-dick/785391/46 "2017-05-02T02:37:40Z")
And of course “Westron” is an English translation of the name of that language. The original word for Westron in its own language was “Adûnaic”. (aside: It’s really annoying trying to find the keyboard shortcut for the circumflex accent). ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-was-denethor-such-a-dick/785391/47 "2017-05-02T03:07:30Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > By the time of the War of the Ring, Denethor’s viewpoint is becoming increasingly warped, due to his arrogance in trying to use the _palantir_ of Minas Tirith. Despite the fact he can guess that Sauron has the _palantir_ of Minas Morgul (formerly Minas Ithil), the considers himself strong enough to use the stone without peril of being subverted in will. As it turns out, he is correct in this; Sauron never manages to convert Denethor to an ally (see for comparison Saruman, who had the Orthanc _palantir_). As I understand it, the difference is because being the true owner of something is very powerful in the Tolkien magic system. Sauron is personally very powerful but in no way the true owner of the _palantir_ he has, so his hold over it is weakened. Suruman was powerul but not the true owner, so Sauron could influence him through the _palantir_. Perrin is neither personally powerful nor the true owner, [so Sauron can outright dominate him through it. Aragorn is nowhere near as powerful as Sauron, but is the true owner of the _palantir_, so can override Sauron’s influence on it.]([Pippin Took - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peregrin_Took#The_Great_Years)) Denethor was strong willed and as Steward essentially a lawfully deputized owner, but not the\* true \*owner. So Sauron couldn’t directly control him or force the _palantir_ to show lies, but could cause it to show only the truth he wanted Denethor to see. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-was-denethor-such-a-dick/785391/48 "2017-05-02T13:30:18Z")
Well, it’s about legitimate authority in general, not just ownership. See also, for instance, the confrontation between Gandalf and Saruman, where the former strips the latter of his position. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-was-denethor-such-a-dick/785391/49 "2017-05-02T20:18:06Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > As I understand it, the difference is because being the true owner of something is very powerful in the Tolkien magic system. > > Sauron is personally very powerful but in no way the true owner of the _palantir_ he has, so his hold over it is weakened. > > Suruman was powerul but not the true owner, so Sauron could influence him through the _palantir_. > > Perrin is neither personally powerful nor the true owner, [so Sauron can outright dominate him through it. > > Aragorn is nowhere near as powerful as Sauron, but is the true owner of the _palantir_, so can override Sauron’s influence on it.]([Pippin Took - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peregrin_Took#The_Great_Years)) > > Denethor was strong willed and as Steward essentially a lawfully deputized owner, but not the\* true \*owner. So Sauron couldn’t directly control him or force the _palantir_ to show lies, but could cause it to show only the truth he wanted Denethor to see. Assuming that by “Perrin” you mean Peregrin Took (Pippen), then Sauron is in control of the Palantir, but does not dominate Pippen through it, because hobbit. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Apocalypso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Apocalypso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apocalypso)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2017, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-was-denethor-such-a-dick/785391/50 "2017-05-02T22:00:58Z")
> [@DSYoungEsq](#): > > The term “Dúnedain” means the Númenoreans. It comes from “dun” (West) and “edain” (plural of “adan”, man; hence, men). “Men of the West” would be a good translation; Tolkien uses “Westernesse” to translate the name “Númenor”, so you could also translate it “Men of Westernesse”. The term in Westron was “Adûn”, but that’s rare, apparently. > > It’s unclear as I recall whether or not the Númenoreans who settled along the shores of Middle-Earth in the Second Age were called Dúnedain by the inhabitants who spoke Sindarin or not. But it clearly applies to both the North and South kingdoms equally. > > “Ranger”, of course, is solely applied to the Dúnedain of the North Kingdom after that kingdom falls to the “Witch-king” of Angmar. Thank you for the clarification, and my apologies. I thought the only Dúnedain left on Middle Earth were the “rangers” (hence their long life spans), and the 2 terms meant the same thing. I didn’t realize that Denethor would still be considered one of them, I thought he was one of the “watered down” race of modern men. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2017, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-was-denethor-such-a-dick/785391/51 "2017-05-03T00:06:41Z")
Sauron doesn’t actually dominate Pippin through the Palantir, but then, he only looked into it for a few seconds. If he had held onto it for longer, it was a very real danger. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-why-was-denethor-such-a-dick/785391.md?page=2)