# LOTR: Witch King vs. Gandalf, the death match **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 26, 2014, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-witch-king-vs-gandalf-the-death-match/684631 "2014-03-26T20:31:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Swamp\_Adder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/977dab/32.png) [@Swamp\_Adder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swamp_Adder)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-witch-king-vs-gandalf-the-death-match/684631/21 "2014-03-27T13:32:13Z")
Regarding the WK’s power at the Pelennor Fields as compared to earlier in the book – Tolkien mentioned in one letter that: > [@](#): > > The Witch-king, their leader, is more powerful in all ways than the others; but he must not yet [i.e., early on in the story] be raised to the stature of Vol.111. There, put in command by Sauron, he is given an added demonic force. So no, the Witch-king who was driven off by Aragorn with a burning stick was not quite on the same level as the Witch-king confronted by Éowyn. Regarding Balrogs: I seem to recall that Tolkien changed his mind a bit on exactly how powerful they were meant to be. It’s true that in earlier versions of e.g. the Fall of Gondolin many Balrogs are said to have been slain by Elves. But sometime later, I seem to recall (I can’t remember exactly where this was said) that he was contemplating making the Balrogs much more powerful than they had been, and much _rarer_ (i.e. instead of there being hosts of Balrogs under Morgoth’s command, that only like seven of them had ever existed). So it’s not at all certain that the Balrog Gandalf fought was conceived of as being at all the same order of creature as that killed by Ecthelion, Glorfindel, etc. ---
**Author:** ![ThisUsernameIsForbidden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b4bc9f/32.png) [@ThisUsernameIsForbidden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThisUsernameIsForbidden)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-witch-king-vs-gandalf-the-death-match/684631/22 "2014-03-27T14:28:35Z")
Now what kind of sense would it be to kill off Gandalf with the Witch King? Come on now. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-witch-king-vs-gandalf-the-death-match/684631/23 "2014-03-27T14:44:23Z")
> [@dogbutler](#): > > And surprise?😃 Fear, surprise, and an unwavering devotion to the Dark Lord. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-witch-king-vs-gandalf-the-death-match/684631/24 "2014-03-27T16:21:50Z")
…And a mace the size of a U-Haul. (IIRC, Jackson got that right but changed it from a scepter-like mace to flail. Which was awesome.) One thing to remember is that the Witch-King had not much less mystical knowledge than Gandalf and far fewer compunctions about using it. He wasn’t “just” a shade, either, but a fell spirit an eon old who had studied at Sauron’s armored heel. In a magical duel, it would be a difficult duel. And given their physical abilities (neither one tires without at a minimum, one very long fight) it wasn’t going to be over quick. I still give it to Gandalf, but not by much and not a certainty. It’s not certain that Glamdring could have dealt the WK a mortal blow, and in general magical powers in LotR were more used to weaken or incapacitate rather than directly kill. Both were incredibly tough and skilled combatants along with the knowledge and neither goes down easy. But that was in keeping with Tolkein’s tendency in combat scenes - nobody was "safe and being stronger or faster or more skilled was an edge, but not a certain one. No battle was safe even if you outclassed your opponent, to the point that one well-equipped elf lord dealt Satan (more or less) a permanent injury. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-witch-king-vs-gandalf-the-death-match/684631/25 "2014-03-27T18:28:09Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Gandalf the White was too powerful for the Witch King. Jackson really screwed up on that scene. The Witch King may have believed he could defeat Gandalf, but he was wrong and knew not who and what he faced. Gandalf could not destroy the Witch King but he would have at least chased him off if not destroyed his current form. Gandalf had already ridden out against many Ring Wraith and rescued Faramir from them. > > …Gandalf the White was a greater being by far, when Eru sent him back he was no longer required to hide his true self as Gandalf the Grey. Gandalf the White was much closer to Olórin as he was in Valinor. Against he no phantom of the enemy could stand for long. Well said, and I agree. > [@BMalion](#): > > I hated that scene in the movie, no way could the Witch-King have broken Gandalf’s staff. Most definitely. Ugh. > [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > …And a mace the size of a U-Haul. (IIRC, Jackson got that right but changed it from a scepter-like mace to flail. Which was awesome.)… I loved the reverb on the “thud” when it hit the ground. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-witch-king-vs-gandalf-the-death-match/684631/26 "2014-03-27T22:59:12Z")
I’ve never taken Glorfindel’s prophecy to mean that a man _couldn’t_ kill the Witch King, but merely that a man _wouldn’t_. “Not by the hand of man shall he fall” != “No man can kill me” ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2014, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-witch-king-vs-gandalf-the-death-match/684631/27 "2014-03-27T23:11:31Z")
Gandalf may be male, but he’s not a man (arguably). ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2014, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-witch-king-vs-gandalf-the-death-match/684631/28 "2014-03-28T04:40:13Z")
He certainly is not of the race of Men, in Tolkien’s legendarium. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Hamsandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4bbf92/32.png) [@Darth\_Hamsandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Hamsandwich)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2014, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-witch-king-vs-gandalf-the-death-match/684631/29 "2014-03-28T05:02:58Z")
It may be a threadshit, sorry: Paul Atreides versus Gandalf the White. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Burden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/958977/32.png) [@Jack\_Burden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Burden)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2014, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-witch-king-vs-gandalf-the-death-match/684631/30 "2014-03-28T05:14:21Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > eta: “flames ran down the blade!” Ooh, so scary. I seem to recall the Balrog had a flaming sword too, for all the good it did him. As does Aragorn, who will be arriving on scene shortly with the rest of his sailing party. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-witch-king-vs-gandalf-the-death-match/684631/31 "2014-03-29T02:58:40Z")
Gandalf is much less a “Man” than Merry is. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-witch-king-vs-gandalf-the-death-match/684631/32 "2014-03-29T03:06:01Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Gandalf is much less a “Man” than Merry is. It’s gonna be rare to hear a line like that and have it not be an insult. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-witch-king-vs-gandalf-the-death-match/684631/33 "2014-03-29T03:10:48Z")
> [@Antinor01](#): > > It’s gonna be rare to hear a line like that and have it not be an insult. I want to note that Gandalf has a bigger staff than Merry. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2014, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-witch-king-vs-gandalf-the-death-match/684631/34 "2014-03-29T03:53:24Z")
But I’ll bet Merry has more hair on his… feet. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2014, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-witch-king-vs-gandalf-the-death-match/684631/35 "2014-03-30T04:14:15Z")
Gandalf “wins”, but maybe not in the sense of a mano-on-mano confrontation. Here’s my thinking: Gandalf is a Maia, a being much greater in origin than the Witch-King. As an Istari, Gandalf is limited in the power he can manifest in Middle-Earth, but the With-King is only a human who has grown great in sorcery and then only retains that power as long as the One Ring exists. It’s been a while since I’ve read the works, but has there been an example of a Maia being destroyed by a non-Maia without mutual self-destruction? Luthien rang Sauron’s bell (and even Morgoth’s in a sense–yay lady), with help, but did not destroy him. Elves who managed to kill a Balrog also died in the process. My own pet theory as to why Sauron grew to be so terrible, and why Saruman or Gandalf would only be a hawk under the eagle’s talon is that practice makes perfect. Sauron long ago shed his restraints on exercising his power in ME and learning sorcery to the extant the Istari could never match. All may have been Maia in the beginning, but the guy who has a millennium of batting practice is going to hit the ball better than the newcomers. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2014, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-witch-king-vs-gandalf-the-death-match/684631/36 "2014-03-31T01:52:22Z")
I think that Sauron was always greater than Gandalf (and most of the other Maiar, for that matter) in terms of pure raw power. Gandalf, however, is explicitly stated to have been the wisest of the Maiar. ---
**Author:** ![Swamp\_Adder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/977dab/32.png) [@Swamp\_Adder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swamp_Adder)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2014, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-witch-king-vs-gandalf-the-death-match/684631/37 "2014-03-31T14:39:18Z")
> [@dasmoocher](#): > > Luthien rang Sauron’s bell (and even Morgoth’s in a sense–yay lady), with help, but did not destroy him. I think it’s implied that Luthien and Huan could have destroyed Sauron when Huan had him pinned down, but instead they just made him give up control of his tower. But then Luthien is “half Maia”, and Huan is… who knows what. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2014, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-witch-king-vs-gandalf-the-death-match/684631/38 "2014-03-31T14:45:13Z")
I don’t have access to my books right now but there is a piece where the Valar discuss sending the Istari. Alue chooses Curumo (Sauruman), Yvanna picks Aiwendil (Radagast) as balance - which goes over about as well as you would expect. Manwe selects Olorin (Gandalf) to go but Olorin initially declines stating that Sauron frightened him. ---
**Author:** ![Swamp\_Adder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/977dab/32.png) [@Swamp\_Adder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swamp_Adder)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2014, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-witch-king-vs-gandalf-the-death-match/684631/39 "2014-03-31T16:16:27Z")
Tolkien said contradictory things on Sauron vs Gandalf. In some places he suggested they might have been equal in the beginning, while at other times he said that Sauron was always more powerful. I’m not sure what his “final” word was on the question. ---
**Author:** ![dasmoocher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@dasmoocher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dasmoocher)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2014, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-witch-king-vs-gandalf-the-death-match/684631/40 "2014-04-05T17:21:51Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I think that Sauron was always greater than Gandalf (and most of the other Maiar, for that matter) in terms of pure raw power. Gandalf, however, is explicitly stated to have been the wisest of the Maiar. It’s been a while since I read any of the books, but yes, this is familiar and I would agree. > [@Swamp\_Adder](#): > > I think it’s implied that Luthien and Huan could have destroyed Sauron when Huan had him pinned down, but instead they just made him give up control of his tower. But then Luthien is “half Maia”, and Huan is… who knows what. IIRC, Huan could have destroyed Sauron’s physical body and didn’t Luthien use that to get his surrender? Saying that Sauron would have to return to Morgoth as a “shadow” and face his scorn? Or, something along those lines? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-witch-king-vs-gandalf-the-death-match/684631.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-witch-king-vs-gandalf-the-death-match/684631.md?page=3)