# LOTR - Wizards **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** middle-earth\ **Created:** [November 16, 2002, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-wizards/137049 "2002-11-16T18:03:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Joe\_Cool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecb155/32.png) [@Joe\_Cool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Cool)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2002, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-wizards/137049/21 "2002-11-17T20:13:33Z")
Every time I read the Silmarillion, it takes a really long time because I spend about as much time looking up names and language elements in the index as I do actually reading. 🙂 but I really think it enriches the experience. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2002, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-wizards/137049/22 "2002-11-18T03:50:23Z")
It doesn’t help that the Noldor apparently had a very small baby names book. Fingon, Fingolfin, Finrod, Feanor, Finwe. Maeglin, Maeglor, Maedhros. Celebrimbor, Celebrindal, Celegorm. And the Edain can be just as bad…Tuor, Huor, Turin, Hurin, Beor, Beren. I’ve read through _The Complete Guide to Middle-Earth_ countless times and I still find things I missed or didn’t know about the characters and places, both in the _Silmarillion_ and in _LOTR_. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2002, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-wizards/137049/23 "2002-11-18T12:59:33Z")
There is a minor and contested point here: there is some evidence that human beings _can_ be Wizards, though probably not as powerful as the Maiar. In one of Tokein’s letters (I think) he states that two of the wizards from Valinor actually went East, did not appear in LotR, and founded a school of magic. Also, no one knew who the Necromancer of Dol Goldu was, and did not assume it was Sauron or one of his servants. On the other side, we never saw any human who could use magic. In the new RolePlaying Game, Magic is an optional system, though a popular one, I imagine. ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Cool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecb155/32.png) [@Joe\_Cool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Cool)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2002, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-wizards/137049/24 "2002-11-18T14:56:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by smiling bandit \* > **In one of Tokein’s letters (I think) he states that two of the wizards from Valinor actually went East, did not appear in LotR, and founded a school of magic. Also, no one knew who the Necromancer of Dol Goldu was, and did not assume it was Sauron or one of his servants.** > [@](#): > > Some here will remember that many years ago I myself [Gandalf] dared to pass the doors of the Necromancer in Dol Guldur, and secretly explored his ways, and found thus that our fears were true: he was none other than Sauron, our Enemy of old, at length taking shape and power again. > [@](#): > > **On the other side, we never saw any human who could use magic.** I don’t know if you call it magic, but Denethor of Minas Tirith and Aragorn were pretty powerful individuals. Aragorn contested wills with Sauron through the Palantir, and I had the impression that Denethor was a sorcerer who would have been a formidable opponent even for Gandalf. And don’t forget the Lord of the Nazgul: > [@](#): > > For even the Wise might fear to withstand the Nine, when they are gathered together under their fell chieftain. **A great king and sorcerer he was of old** , and now he wields a deadly fear. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2002, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-wizards/137049/25 "2002-11-18T17:12:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by NoClueBoy \* > [Gandalf] kept it so it wouldn’t used wrongly > > it was under the power of the one, too, so any user could have been seduced by the dark side, regardless of good intentions. I don’t have my _LOTR_ at hand, but my recollection is that: 1. The three Elven-Rings had never belonged to Sauron, and were not, as such, under the power of the One Ring. 2. The three Elven-Rings belonged to Elrond, Galadriel, and Cirdan. 3. Cirdan gave his ring to Gandalf not to protect the ring from being used wrongly, but to help Gandalf bear his burdens. ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2002, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-wizards/137049/26 "2002-11-18T17:47:25Z")
> [@](#): > > There is a minor and contested point here: there is some evidence that human beings can be Wizards, though probably not as powerful as the Maiar. Men can be sorcerors (a la the Witch King of Angmar); I think this is why the Istari were able to go around as men and not totally have their cover blown. ---
**Author:** ![Threadkiller](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/aca169/32.png) [@Threadkiller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Threadkiller)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2002, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-wizards/137049/27 "2002-11-18T17:58:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RTFirefly \* > 2) The three Elven-Rings belonged to Elrond, Galadriel, and Cirdan. > > 1. Cirdan gave his ring to Gandalf not to protect the ring from being used wrongly, but to help Gandalf bear his burdens. The emerald ring was first given to Gil Galad before Elrond had it. ---
**Author:** ![I\_am\_Sparticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c68b51/32.png) [@I\_am\_Sparticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_am_Sparticus)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2002, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-wizards/137049/28 "2002-11-18T18:28:47Z")
Wasn’t it sapphire, not emerald? And it seems that Wormtongue had the power to poison the hearts of those that would listen, a kind of black magic. ---
**Author:** ![Lilacs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Lilacs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lilacs)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2002, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-wizards/137049/29 "2002-11-18T19:13:53Z")
The emerald ring was Barahir’s (which originally belonged to Finrod Felagund) – the one the heir of Elendil wore. Gilgalad, Galadriel and Cirdan wore the three originally. Cirdan surrendered his to Gandalf, as he felt that Gandalf would need it more than he. And it wasn’t that the three Elven rings were ever Sauron’s, however they were still subject to the mastery of the One ring. Once it was claimed, all the works done by the three would be revealed to the Master. Galadriel must have also learned magic from Melian – and from her time in Valinor, of course. ---
**Author:** ![BZ00000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/47e85d/32.png) [@BZ00000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BZ00000)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2002, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-wizards/137049/30 "2002-11-18T22:10:32Z")
\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_They were forbidden from using their power directly when they were sent to Middle-Earth, however, which is why they didn’t just assault Sauron and destroy him. * * * Ok I haven’t read the book, but Gandalf seems to use his power a lot in the movie. So does Saruman. ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Cool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecb155/32.png) [@Joe\_Cool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Cool)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2002, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-wizards/137049/31 "2002-11-18T23:06:01Z")
Well, Saruman is in rebellion, and in a quest to claim The Ring for himself. So obviously he’s not obeying orders. Gandalf uses his powers to defend the party from the Balrog, to start fires for warmth, to drive off the wargs and a few orcs, etc. But he doesn’t use his power in the direct completion of his goal - to defeat Sauron and destroy the Ring. ---
**Author:** ![BZ00000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/47e85d/32.png) [@BZ00000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BZ00000)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2002, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-wizards/137049/32 "2002-11-18T23:53:35Z")
So wizards can use their powers for the things that aren’t really important? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2002, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-wizards/137049/33 "2002-11-19T00:08:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by toadspittle \* > **Men can be sorcerors (a la the Witch King of Angmar** Was he Witch-King before or after he got a ring from Sauron? Because, if it were after, he might have gotten his power to use magic from that. As for Wormtongue, I don’t think his ability was magical. He was just a really charismatic person. Any special power to persuade would have been given him by Saruman. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2002, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-wizards/137049/34 "2002-11-19T02:52:35Z")
Celebrimbor gave Nenya to Galadriel himself. He gave Vilya and Narya to Gil-Galad, before Sauron laid siege to Eregion. Gil-Galad gave Narya to Cirdan, who later gave it to Gandalf. Gil-Galad kept Vilya himself, until just before the last battle, when he gave it to Elrond. Tolkien made mention of men doing magic here and there in his writings, but later wrote that he regretted including such details, saying on 2nd thought, men shouldn’t be considered to have that ability. ---
**Author:** ![Super\_Gnat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Super\_Gnat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Super_Gnat)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2002, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-wizards/137049/35 "2002-11-19T02:52:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by toadspittle \* > \*\*Men can be sorcerors (a la the Witch King of Angmar); I think this is why the Istari were able to go around as men and not totally have their cover blown. \*\* They weren’t really going around as men, though. People either knew they were wizards – and left it at that – or didn’t know what/who they were. In a world with folks like Tom Bombadil and Barrow-wights, one’s precise genus-species was probably important only as an indicator of probable allies. ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2002, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-wizards/137049/36 "2002-11-19T20:04:37Z")
> [@](#): > > They weren’t really going around as men, though. People either knew they were wizards – and left it at that – or didn’t know what/who they were. In a world with folks like Tom Bombadil and Barrow-wights, one’s precise genus-species was probably important only as an indicator of probable allies. A good point, and one that PJ has hopelessly muddled with the new films. “Elvishness”, for instance, was always portrayed more as a bearing, beauty, and inner light (as well as tallness) than as a simple matter of pointy ears. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lotr-wizards/137049.md?page=1)