# Lou Grant's "Jewish vibes" controversial on Mary Tyler Moore Show?? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 30, 2008, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lou-grants-jewish-vibes-controversial-on-mary-tyler-moore-show/475039 "2008-11-30T09:16:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2008, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lou-grants-jewish-vibes-controversial-on-mary-tyler-moore-show/475039/21 "2008-11-30T22:31:16Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Absolutely! A huge percentage of it is. > > So much so that, even producers and writers who are not Jewish have learned to write in the Jewish comic idiom. Gary Marshall, for instance, is Italian, but he cut his teeth writing jokes for Jewish Catskills comedians like Phil Foster, so the humor in his shows often has a MORE Jewish vibe than shows produced by actual JEws. He should try listening to [this](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vrd9p47MPHg) I never read anything about MTM being too Jewish. Dick van Dyke pioneered that level of integration (not counting the Goldbergs). Though the percentage of Gentiles on that writing staff was much higher than what it was based on (Your Show of Shows) Morey Amsterdam’s Buddy was very Jewish, even getting bar mitzvahed on one show. Rose Marie I’m not sure of. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2008, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lou-grants-jewish-vibes-controversial-on-mary-tyler-moore-show/475039/22 "2008-11-30T23:23:31Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I never read anything about MTM being too Jewish. Dick van Dyke pioneered that level of integration (not counting the Goldbergs). Though the percentage of Gentiles on that writing staff was much higher than what it was based on (Your Show of Shows) Morey Amsterdam’s Buddy was very Jewish, even getting bar mitzvahed on one show. Rose Marie I’m not sure of. I could imagine everybody on that show other than the Petries being Jewish. And even Rob apparently had enough Yiddish in him to write a song called “Bupkis.” ---
**Author:** ![Rodgers01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Rodgers01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodgers01)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lou-grants-jewish-vibes-controversial-on-mary-tyler-moore-show/475039/23 "2008-12-01T00:44:49Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Sexist I can see, but when was Lou Grant ever racist, even mildly so? You’re correct, I can’t remember him ever being racist. I just lumped the two together unfairly. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lou-grants-jewish-vibes-controversial-on-mary-tyler-moore-show/475039/24 "2008-12-01T02:24:38Z")
Could be we’re all reading too much into this. Maybe it’s just that the network was concerned that because _Asner_ was Jewish, he’d play the character as Jewish. Of course they must not have been watching when Murray Slaughter turned into the reincarnation of Buddy Sorrell. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lou-grants-jewish-vibes-controversial-on-mary-tyler-moore-show/475039/25 "2008-12-01T15:54:28Z")
> [@Rodgers01](#): > > You’re correct, I can’t remember him ever being racist. I just lumped the two together unfairly. Good; for a moment I thought I’d missed something thru lusting after the 70s-era Mary Tyler Moore. 🙂 Lou’s sexism was fairly benign, as I recall; more in teh vein of “We must take care of the poor little woman” than “We can’t let this bitch interfere in men’s business.” And I’m not sure even about that, as his patronizing tendencies can be explained by his being in love with Mary. (Of course, Murray and Ted were in love with Mary too, but only halfway.) ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lou-grants-jewish-vibes-controversial-on-mary-tyler-moore-show/475039/26 "2008-12-01T16:16:55Z")
> [@ZenBeam](#): > > Wait, so Samantha being a witch marrying a mortal is a metaphor for a JEwish woman marrying a gentile? The menorah on the credenza by the front door wasn’t a giveaway? ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lou-grants-jewish-vibes-controversial-on-mary-tyler-moore-show/475039/27 "2008-12-01T16:21:52Z")
Seinfeld ate at the diner, which served cheeseburgers, and worked Saturday nights. How Jewish could he have been? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lou-grants-jewish-vibes-controversial-on-mary-tyler-moore-show/475039/28 "2008-12-01T16:39:33Z")
> [@TWDuke](#): > > and Jerry Stiller played a Sicilian! I think he found his long-lost cousin in Tuscany. ---
**Author:** ![Monstera\_deliciosa](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monstera_deliciosa/32/109_2.png) [@Monstera\_deliciosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monstera_deliciosa)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lou-grants-jewish-vibes-controversial-on-mary-tyler-moore-show/475039/29 "2008-12-01T16:43:54Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Good; for a moment I thought I’d missed something thru lusting after the 70s-era Mary Tyler Moore. 🙂 > > Lou’s sexism was fairly benign, as I recall; more in teh vein of “We must take care of the poor little woman” than “We can’t let this bitch interfere in men’s business.” And I’m not sure even about that, as his patronizing tendencies can be explained by his being in love with Mary. (Of course, Murray and Ted were in love with Mary too, but only halfway.) You’ve forgotten the episode where Murray realized that he was so much in love with Mary that he confessed to Marie? ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lou-grants-jewish-vibes-controversial-on-mary-tyler-moore-show/475039/30 "2008-12-01T16:44:13Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Seinfeld ate at the diner, which served cheeseburgers, and worked Saturday nights. How Jewish could he have been? More importantly, he worked Friday nights. Observant Jews can’t work from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday. Working Saturday night, while possibly inconvenient, wouldn’t be a violation of the Sabbath. ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lou-grants-jewish-vibes-controversial-on-mary-tyler-moore-show/475039/31 "2008-12-01T19:48:55Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Seinfeld ate at the diner, which served cheeseburgers, and worked Saturday nights. How Jewish could he have been? Oh, plenty. Not keeping kosher or observing the Sabbath (which is Friday night through Saturday at sundown, not Saturday night) doesn’t mean he’s not Jewish – I’m pretty sure a majority of us modern Jews enjoy cheeseburgers and never _bencht licht_. It’s about culture and heritage/tradition as well as a religion. Jerry certainly identified as a Jew, he was just a highly secular one. Manhattan is chock-a-block with us. ---
**Author:** ![TWDuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e495f1/32.png) [@TWDuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TWDuke)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lou-grants-jewish-vibes-controversial-on-mary-tyler-moore-show/475039/32 "2008-12-01T20:37:43Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > I think he found his long-lost cousin in Tuscany. Drat, for some reason I thought Frank Costanza was Sicilian. But he certainly wasn’t a New York Jew like Jerry Stiller. (In fact, he was a member of the Knights of Columbus, a Catholic organization, in at least one episode). ---
**Author:** ![The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Devil_s_Grandmother)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lou-grants-jewish-vibes-controversial-on-mary-tyler-moore-show/475039/33 "2008-12-01T21:54:36Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > How Jewish could he have been? I’ve never seen the Seinfeld show, so I’m not sure how Jewish the character is, but I have met several people who are from Jewish families, believe strongly in the existence and benevolence of G-d, AND are the least observant, hatless, shrimp-eating, Saturday-working Jews _ever_. Failure to observe the rules of your religion only makes you a bad exemplar of your religion; it does not nullify your self-identification and belief system. I have a faint memory of the MTM show being mentioned, along with Quincy and Gabe in Welcome Back Kotter, as shows that had to hide the jewishness of the characters back in the 1970s. IIRC, Seinfeld, Joel the doctor from Northern Exposure and the short, nervous producer from Murphy Brown were examples of out-of-the-closet Jewish characters when the discussion was taking place (maybe the early 90s?) ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lou-grants-jewish-vibes-controversial-on-mary-tyler-moore-show/475039/34 "2008-12-01T22:34:56Z")
> [@The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](#): > > I have a faint memory of the MTM show being mentioned, along with Quincy and Gabe in Welcome Back Kotter, as shows that had to hide the jewishness of the characters back in the 1970s. IIRC, Seinfeld, Joel the doctor from Northern Exposure and the short, nervous producer from Murphy Brown were examples of out-of-the-closet Jewish characters when the discussion was taking place (maybe the early 90s?) Quincy??? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@The\_Devil\_s\_Grandmother](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Devil_s_Grandmother)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lou-grants-jewish-vibes-controversial-on-mary-tyler-moore-show/475039/35 "2008-12-01T22:45:21Z")
Yeah, I thought “Quincy???” too, but it was one of the examples brought up. I watched a lot of Quincy, and can’t remember the slightest clue that he was Jewish. And I think it might have come up a couple of times when murder victims were Jews who’s families wanted to get them buried speedily. The writers of Qunicy didn’t shy away from Sam’s being Japanese, and even had him speak a little Japanese in one episode so it’s a bit mind boggling why Quincy’s ethnicity would have been hidden. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lou-grants-jewish-vibes-controversial-on-mary-tyler-moore-show/475039/36 "2008-12-01T23:12:34Z")
> [@choie](#): > > . Jerry certainly identified as a Jew, he was just a highly secular one. Manhattan is chock-a-block with us. The NY show business world is even more chock-a-block with us. I grew up in Queens, and 40 years and 4 moves later I have a hard time really believing we aren’t actually the majority religion. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lou-grants-jewish-vibes-controversial-on-mary-tyler-moore-show/475039/37 "2008-12-01T23:44:35Z")
I don’t know if this is true, but I read once that Reuben Kincaid (David Madden), the band manager on [_The Partridge Family,_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partridge_Family) even though he was single and always around, was considered unacceptable as even a potential love-interest for single mom Shirley Partridge, because he was Jewish. (Even though “Kincaid” is not a Jewish name – is it?) ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lou-grants-jewish-vibes-controversial-on-mary-tyler-moore-show/475039/38 "2008-12-01T23:45:44Z")
> [@choie](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Is there anything Jewish about, say, Jeff Foxworthy? > > Sorry, nice try, but you can’t fob him off on us! 🙂 From his site > [@](#): > > He is the largest selling comedy-recording artist in history, a multiple Grammy Award nominee and best selling author of 11 books. Sounds like a successful businessman to me, nein, bubuleh? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lou-grants-jewish-vibes-controversial-on-mary-tyler-moore-show/475039/39 "2008-12-01T23:54:02Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > The menorah on the credenza by the front door wasn’t a giveaway? Aha! That was not a menorah, but a fancy candle holder. It had 9 places for candles, not 8. I know this because a Jewish (what is with the JEwish stuff?) friend and I counted them one episode, to settle this matter between us. I can’t believe (finally) something I know about is useful to the Dope. I also don’t see a Jewish influence on MTM. I see humor. Rhoda was Jewish and somewhat exotic to Ms Richards Wonderbread personality, but that was about it. Murray might have been Jewish, but as was said upthread, he was definitely closeted. Re Dick van Dyke: I don’t see Milly and Jerry Helper as Jewish (no reason not to, just don’t). With the exception of Buddy, I thought that the humor was slanted to NYC style stuff. Jewish humor is some of the best humor going. What’s not to love? If I had to choose between Jeff Foxworthy or Jeffy Seinfeld, it’s Seinfeld all the way. About the only non Jewish comedians I like are Bob Newhart, Carol Burnett, Dick van Dyke (show) and Stephen Colbert. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2008, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lou-grants-jewish-vibes-controversial-on-mary-tyler-moore-show/475039/40 "2008-12-01T23:56:53Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > (Even though “Kincaid” is not a Jewish name – is it?) Probably not in the case of [this](http://sharetv.org/shows/the_bill_cosby_show/cast/chetkincaid-billcosby) sitcom character from the same era. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lou-grants-jewish-vibes-controversial-on-mary-tyler-moore-show/475039.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lou-grants-jewish-vibes-controversial-on-mary-tyler-moore-show/475039.md?page=3)