# Love and Logic Parenting: "I love you too much to argue" **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 14, 2012, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-and-logic-parenting-i-love-you-too-much-to-argue/625134 "2012-06-14T14:15:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2012, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-and-logic-parenting-i-love-you-too-much-to-argue/625134/21 "2012-06-14T15:43:03Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > I wasn’t under the impression this approach was for tantrumming 4 year olds. I was indeed thinking of an older child. But regardless, I don’t see how it involves “empathy” at all. Its a technique, and maybe its a great technique, but it doesn’t seem to be one that one that explicitly recognizes the feelings of the child (which is what empathy is, not “not getting mad” or “diverting the emotional energy”) The point of L&L isn’t that you show empathy for the child, it’s about teaching the child to show empathy for _you_. “I love you too much to argue” is an attempt to get them to understand what’s going on in your head, and why you’re shutting down the argument. I’m not sure if it’s the best way to teach empathy, but it’s a lot closer than “because I said so.” FWIW, they also recommend things like, “all this arguing is making me tired,” and then you leave the room to go lie down. The idea is to make your kids realize that their behavior has an affect on you, and that you’re not just some kind of food-and-discipline machine. ---
**Author:** ![cher3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/da6949/32.png) [@cher3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cher3)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2012, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-and-logic-parenting-i-love-you-too-much-to-argue/625134/22 "2012-06-14T16:34:02Z")
What does that even mean? I agree that calling something love doesn’t make it love. “Because I said so” at least has the merit of being honest. ---
**Author:** ![overlyverbose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/9dc877/32.png) [@overlyverbose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/overlyverbose)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2012, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-and-logic-parenting-i-love-you-too-much-to-argue/625134/23 "2012-06-14T17:51:29Z")
Why can’t you just explain why you’re saying no? Saying I love you too much to argue doesn’t provide any information. It doesn’t teach anything about logic (i.e., this is why we’re not doing this) - all it does is shoot them down. I’m all for stonewalling when appropriate, but not before providing some sort of explanation. It sucks when no one will tell you why they’re behaving the way they are, especially when you’re a kid and you have to listen to all the adults around you. ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2012, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-and-logic-parenting-i-love-you-too-much-to-argue/625134/24 "2012-06-14T18:05:23Z")
> [@overlyverbose](#): > > Why can’t you just explain why you’re saying no? Saying I love you too much to argue doesn’t provide any information. It doesn’t teach anything about logic (i.e., this is why we’re not doing this) - all it does is shoot them down. > > I’m all for stonewalling when appropriate, but not before providing some sort of explanation. It sucks when no one will tell you why they’re behaving the way they are, especially when you’re a kid and you have to listen to all the adults around you. The phrase is, “I love you too much to argue,” not, “I love you too much to have a calm, rational discussion.” If your kid is willing to talk rationally, by all means, talk rationally. Generally arguments start out as discussions, and then one person escalates it to an argument. With kids, this happens right about the time they realize they’re not going to get their way. Arguing with kids is pointless, so if they try to escalate the discussion to an argument, you respond with this catchphrase instead of joining in. I think you have this picture of kids asking their parents legitimate questions, and the parents responding with dickish stonewalling. That’s not the intent of Love and Logic. Now, “don’t get into arguments with your kids” might seem like basic parenting advice, but some people need it. And even for people who might not think they need it, when you have a bunch of little kids and you’re 10 minutes late for the birthday party, and somebody doesn’t want to put on pants and holy shit, who spilled milk all over the place… catchphrases can come in handy. ---
**Author:** ![Chipacabra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@Chipacabra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chipacabra)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2012, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-and-logic-parenting-i-love-you-too-much-to-argue/625134/25 "2012-06-14T18:05:30Z")
I have friends that use this method with their spouses. I, personally, am a little horrified when they’re basically saying “I love you == You’re wrong and I don’t want to talk to you anymore.” ---
**Author:** ![perfectparanoia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a5b964/32.png) [@perfectparanoia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/perfectparanoia)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2012, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-and-logic-parenting-i-love-you-too-much-to-argue/625134/26 "2012-06-14T18:11:25Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Now, “don’t get into arguments with your kids” might seem like basic parenting advice, but some people need it. And even for people who might not think they need it, when you have a bunch of little kids and you’re 10 minutes late for the birthday party, and somebody doesn’t want to put on pants and holy shit, who spilled milk all over the place… catchphrases can come in handy. Until you actually have kids, maybe. Once you do and they’re verbal, of course they are going to try to argue with you. It’s when they win that you probably have a problem. ---
**Author:** ![Blackberry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blackberry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackberry)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2012, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-and-logic-parenting-i-love-you-too-much-to-argue/625134/27 "2012-06-14T18:14:32Z")
They don’t say to do it instead of explaining your reasoning to your child. IIRC, they recommend it if you’ve already explained and your kid won’t let it go and accept your answer. Still, I don’t get what loving your kid has to do with it. I don’t want to argue with my kid because it’s pointless and annoying, not because I love her. ---
**Author:** ![Taomist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/53a042/32.png) [@Taomist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taomist)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2012, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-and-logic-parenting-i-love-you-too-much-to-argue/625134/28 "2012-06-14T18:16:39Z")
Sounds like the opposite of most of my relationships, ie I didn’t love them ENOUGH to argue with them. I’d just…go do my own thing. That’s one thing that’s different about my husband, or about me regarding my husband. I _will_ argue with him about things that are important, no matter how pissed we get. The other option leads to all kinds of issues. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2012, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-and-logic-parenting-i-love-you-too-much-to-argue/625134/29 "2012-06-14T19:13:32Z")
I know nothing about that website or their intent. I can say that I use that approach in some specific instances - for instance, my teenaged kids get worked up and can’t let go of an issue. There are clear ways they can approach the issue with far less stress - and I state those. But the kid is NOT really focused on finding a solution - they are struggling with their emotions. So they hear what I say, but are actually needing to vent and kind of itching for confrontation because it will get their emotions out. So, if I get to a point where my logical explanation is just being met with emotional confrontation, I will fall back on “okay, I hear you - I love you and don’t want to argue about this.” More often than not, by later that day or the next day, they have cooled down and we can talk practically about some of the logic / solution points I stated. ---
**Author:** ![stretch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a6a055/32.png) [@stretch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stretch)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2012, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-and-logic-parenting-i-love-you-too-much-to-argue/625134/30 "2012-06-14T19:48:37Z")
The website says: > [@loveandlogic.com](#): > > Putting an End to Arguing and Backtalk > > Does it ever seem like children carry around a little book called, “Arguing for Fun and Profit?” To put an end to this draining behavior, experiment with repeating the same loving Love and Logic “one-liner,” regardless of what your child says. The key, of course, is to maintain a soft, empathetic tone of voice. Listed below are some examples: > > “I love you too much to argue.” > “Probably so.” > “I know.” > “I bet it feels that way.” > “What do you think you’re going to do?” > “What did I say?” > “I don’t know. What do you think?” > “There’s no time for making kitten britches.” (Some of the most effective one-liners are really strange!) It seems to me they advocate these “one liners” when your kid is in ‘I’m going to die on this hill’ mode rather than anytime your kid wants to discuss something with you. Seems reasonable to me. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2012, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-and-logic-parenting-i-love-you-too-much-to-argue/625134/31 "2012-06-14T20:02:58Z")
There’s a difference between having a discussion to clarify things and arguing. L&L typically views arguing as a power struggle between the child and the parent. The child will keep coming up with excuses or alternatives, even after you have made your decision to try and gain some power in the discussion. Instead of continuing the argument with your kid over the issue, after you’ve made up your mind, you use that phrase or something else like it to essentially end the conversation. ---
**Author:** ![overlyverbose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/9dc877/32.png) [@overlyverbose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/overlyverbose)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2012, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-and-logic-parenting-i-love-you-too-much-to-argue/625134/32 "2012-06-14T20:05:54Z")
> [@stretch](#): > > The website says: > > It seems to me they advocate these “one liners” when your kid is in ‘I’m going to die on this hill’ mode rather than anytime your kid wants to discuss something with you. Seems reasonable to me. This makes more sense to me. Part of my problem with the “I love you too much to argue” line is that it sounds so damn trite. It reminds me of the saying “Love means never having to say you’re sorry.” I hate that saying - it’s dead wrong and it’s annoying as hell. Oh, well. As a parent I find myself saying and doing things that would’ve made me cringe before I had kids. While I still disagree with the sentiment, if it prevents you from getting into an all-out screaming match with a kid, it’s got some worth. ---
**Author:** ![raspberry\_hunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@raspberry\_hunter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raspberry_hunter)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2012, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-and-logic-parenting-i-love-you-too-much-to-argue/625134/33 "2012-06-14T20:09:49Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > In my mind, actual empathy would look something like, \*I understand you don’t feel satisfied with my answer about why you can’t have a pet frog, but I’ve made my decision. \* But whatever, I’m no expert. > [@steronz](#): > > That sounds nice and all, and probably works great on a 10 year old, but 4 year olds don’t argue rationally. That would have absolutely no effect on a raging child. I don’t see why it would have any less effect than “I love you too much to argue,” except maybe that **Hello Again** ’s version is longer (and that’s OK too; subsequent iterations could just be “I understand, but we’re not going to argue about it any more”). And as the kid gets older, the kid might start understanding it, and (in my case more important) the parent will also get practice in empathy for when the kid turns 10. I’ve only got a 2-year-old, though, so I’m sure I could be totally off base on this – I’m still stuck on dealing with tantrums by saying “I can’t understand you when you’re yelling and screaming,” rinse and repeat Ten Thousand Times. (Which seems to work as well as anything else on the Little One, which is to say not particularly well, but better than other things we’ve tried.) ---
**Author:** ![hogarth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hogarth/32/1773_2.png) [@hogarth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hogarth)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2012, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-and-logic-parenting-i-love-you-too-much-to-argue/625134/34 "2012-06-14T20:27:46Z")
> [@stretch](#): > > It seems to me they advocate these “one liners” when your kid is in ‘I’m going to die on this hill’ mode rather than anytime your kid wants to discuss something with you. Seems reasonable to me. The idea of trying to disarm a tantrum seems perfectly reasonable, but unthinkingly repeating the same phrase over and over again just sounds irritating. I think “I know” is the least objectionable one listed. I think I’ve even tried that one on my wife on several occasions… ---
**Author:** ![steronz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steronz/32/11765_2.png) [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2012, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-and-logic-parenting-i-love-you-too-much-to-argue/625134/35 "2012-06-14T20:32:48Z")
> [@raspberry\_hunter](#): > > I’ve only got a 2-year-old, though, so I’m sure I could be totally off base on this – I’m still stuck on dealing with tantrums by saying “I can’t understand you when you’re yelling and screaming,” rinse and repeat Ten Thousand Times. (Which seems to work as well as anything else on the Little One, which is to say not particularly well, but better than other things we’ve tried.) Off topic, but typically when a toddler is upset, it’s extra frustrating to him when it appears that nobody can figure out _why_ he’s upset. If they want to stay up and you tell them to go to bed, they figure that you must not actually understand that they want to stay up. Then the tantrum starts. To diffuse the situation, try walking him through what’s happening in a way that shows you understand their wishes: “You want to stay up?” \ In a more sympathetic tone of voice, “You want to stay up?” \ “You want to stay up even though I told you to go to bed?” \ “You don’t want to go to bed, you want to stay up?” \ “But it’s bed time, you need to go to bed.” \ Repeat that 3 or 4 times and the tantrum is gone. It’s repetitive and strange, but it works. And eventually they grow out of it. /amateur psychology mode off ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2012, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-and-logic-parenting-i-love-you-too-much-to-argue/625134/36 "2012-06-14T20:42:43Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > Off topic, but typically when a toddler is upset, it’s extra frustrating to him when it appears that nobody can figure out _why_ he’s upset. If they want to stay up and you tell them to go to bed, they figure that you must not actually understand that they want to stay up. Then the tantrum starts. To diffuse the situation, try walking him through what’s happening in a way that shows you understand their wishes: > > “You want to stay up?” > > \ > > In a more sympathetic tone of voice, “You want to stay up?” > > \ > > “You want to stay up even though I told you to go to bed?” > > \ > > “You don’t want to go to bed, you want to stay up?” > > \ > > “But it’s bed time, you need to go to bed.” > > \ > Repeat that 3 or 4 times and the tantrum is gone. It’s repetitive and strange, but it works. And eventually they grow out of it. > > /amateur psychology mode off I can confirm that this worked for my kids as well. It really does seem like a lot of the frustration is about not feeling understood rather than just not getting their way. Teaching children a bit of sign language before they can talk also helps in this regard. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2012, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-and-logic-parenting-i-love-you-too-much-to-argue/625134/37 "2012-06-14T20:43:58Z")
> [@stretch](#): > > The website says: > > It seems to me they advocate these “one liners” when your kid is in ‘I’m going to die on this hill’ mode rather than anytime your kid wants to discuss something with you. Seems reasonable to me. Thanks–that’s not what I was reading, and the page you found does give a little more context. I’m still not on board with the catchphrase/mantra approach. If it comes down to that I’d rather just say “I’m not going to talk about this anymore” and then–not talk about it anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2012, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-and-logic-parenting-i-love-you-too-much-to-argue/625134/38 "2012-06-15T01:52:16Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > I’m still not on board with the catchphrase/mantra approach. If it comes down to that I’d rather just say “I’m not going to talk about this anymore” and then–not talk about it anymore. Me: “I’m done talking about this.” Three-year-old daughter: “No you’re not! You’re NOT done talking about this! Daddy, you’re NOT done talking about this!” rinse and repeat. But it’s still the phrase of choice for me when I’m done with an argument. ---
**Author:** ![Stendhal\_Syndrome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/77aa72/32.png) [@Stendhal\_Syndrome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stendhal_Syndrome)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2012, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-and-logic-parenting-i-love-you-too-much-to-argue/625134/39 "2012-06-15T02:14:41Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > The classics are really the best aren’t they? > > My favorite was “I’ll \_\_\_\_\_ you!” > > Son: I want more Gummy Bears! > > Me: I’ll Gummy Bear you! > They’re rolling eyes were adorable. I can’t wait for them to have their own mouthy brats to deal with. 😃 My husband did this! ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2012, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-and-logic-parenting-i-love-you-too-much-to-argue/625134/40 "2012-06-15T03:07:59Z")
> [@Stendhal\_Syndrome](#): > > 😃 My husband did this! I learned that from my father. It worked a little different with him. If you said anything else you got smacked. My kids just got thrown off by it. After a while they went pre-emptive: Son: I want more Gummy Bears! Son: Yeah, I know, you’ll Gummy Bear me. :rolleyes: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-and-logic-parenting-i-love-you-too-much-to-argue/625134.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-and-logic-parenting-i-love-you-too-much-to-argue/625134.md?page=3)