# "Love" in action and victims of ex-gay brainwashing
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [June 9, 2005, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531 "2005-06-09T00:41:01Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Ooner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ooner)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2005, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/1 "2005-06-09T00:41:01Z")
[This](http://www.loveinaction.org/) is “Love in Action,” an anti-gay camp for teens to find Jesus and change their sinful sinful ways.
And [these](http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.ListAll&friendID=7428306&Mytoken=20050604221047) are the thoughts of a 16 year old boy, who doesn’t want to be a part of it, who came out to his parents only to be thrown into the program with the ultimate goal of brainwashing out the gay.
The camp rules are posted, and it’s just fucking sick. It’s brainwashing, it’s child abuse, it’s fucking INSANE and I wish that it was illegal so these fucked up misguided assholes he calls mom and dad could be locked away for attempting to emotionally DESTROY their child.
Just because you wrap it up in bible quotes doesn’t mean it isn’t intended to harm. The entire goal of this brainwashing scheme is to take away what matters most. No communication with any friends, no keeping a journal, no “false images” that could at all remind you or relate to your previous (read: happy) life, no physical contact with anyone aside from polite professional handshakes.
These cruel sick fucks think that it’s ok to take a CHILD, a fucking child who says NO and break him, fuck him up mentally and emotionally until he is weak and powerless, crush his soul and leave an empty sad shell of a person that they can implant their BULLSHIT anti-gay rhetoric in and send on his way.
They’re going to murder him. They’re going to kill everything that made him who he was. I hope his parents and everyone brainwashing kids in this sick cult fucking roast.
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### Author:  [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2005, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/2 "2005-06-09T00:53:05Z")
That “camp” is truly disgusting.
Is there any civil-rights related legal recourse for older teens who’re involuntarily placed in such programs? If so, I’d love to donate to a group that provides it.
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### Author:  [@Ooner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ooner)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2005, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/3 "2005-06-09T01:02:40Z")
I’d like to think that teens old enough to be emancipated from their parents would be given that opportunity, but my guess is that they don’t even get a chance.
I don’t know specifically what civil rights groups would take an active stand against this kind of thing, but if anyone does please let me know as well. I hope that just having people be aware that this kind of thing is going on will build more opposition to it.
Apparently, there are already daily protests at the camp in Zach’s case, but the really sad thing is that most cases don’t even get this much attention.
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### Author:  [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2005, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/4 "2005-06-09T01:29:56Z")
> [@John Smid](#):
>
> I would rather you commit suicide than have you leave Love In Action wanting to return to the gay lifestyle. In a physical death you could still have a spiritual resurrection; whereas, returning to homosexuality you are yielding yourself to a spiritual death from which there is no recovery.
John, I would rather you =============== than have you get up in the morning and eat breakfast.
(Cussed letter of the law.)
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### Author:  [@wolfstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfstu)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2005, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/5 "2005-06-09T01:47:13Z")
**Larry Mudd** , where did you find that quote?
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### Author:  [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2005, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/6 "2005-06-09T01:58:08Z")
Has anyone ever seen that **Mr. Show** skit where they try to convince David Cross’ character that he doesn’t have to be gay? It’s very funny if you ever get the chance to see it.
I think these camps are really stupid, but I can understand the goals of the parents, however misguided they may be. If you really thought something your child was doing was going to condemn them to hell, wouldn’t you try to change it? That being said, it’s still a stupid and wrong thing to do.
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### Author:  [@Good\_Egg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Good_Egg)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2005, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/7 "2005-06-09T02:02:17Z")
Some people shouldn’t be parents, I suppose. Thankfully, there ARE protests. If theres enough publicity, you think Randall Terry might show up? :dubious:
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### Author:  [@Good\_Egg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Good_Egg)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2005, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/8 "2005-06-09T02:04:23Z")
Now imagine if there were camps teens were forced into that taught them that being gay was okay. Imagine the outcry! Notice that there aren’t any.
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### Author:  [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2005, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/9 "2005-06-09T02:09:35Z")
> [@brickbacon](#):
>
> I think these camps are really stupid, but I can understand the goals of the parents, however misguided they may be. If you really thought something your child was doing was going to condemn them to hell, wouldn’t you try to change it? That being said, it’s still a stupid and wrong thing to do.
That’s a good point. This is “hate the sin, love the sinner” in action. Notice how much it resembles “hate the sinner.”
Anyone know if any survivors from one of these camps have tried suing them?
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### Author:  [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2005, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/10 "2005-06-09T02:12:14Z")
> [@wolfstu](#):
>
> **Larry Mudd** , where did you find that quote?
Sorry. It’s a widely-repeated attribution by LIA survivor Tom Ottosen, from [this article](http://www.whosoever.org/issue4/issue4_LIA.html). Smid denies he said it. (Counselling suicide is a crime, after all.) He [doesn’t deny](http://www.laweekly.com/ink/98/39/news-holland.php) the “better off dead” gist of it, though:
> [@](#):
>
> Tom Ottosen says Love in Action executive director John Smid suggested that he commit suicide rather than return to the “gay lifestyle.” (Smid, reached by phone, says he might have mentioned the high risk of death by AIDS or stress in the gay “lifestyle,” but never suicide.)
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### Author:  [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2005, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/11 "2005-06-09T02:12:15Z")
> [@brickbacon](#):
>
> Has anyone ever seen that **Mr. Show** skit where they try to convince David Cross’ character that he doesn’t have to be gay? It’s very funny if you ever get the chance to see it.
>
> I think these camps are really stupid, but I can understand the goals of the parents, however misguided they may be. If you really thought something your child was doing was going to condemn them to hell, wouldn’t you try to change it? That being said, it’s still a stupid and wrong thing to do.
I think, **brickbacon** , that the parents’ motivation isn’t salvation for their kids, it’s that being gay is evil (actually, according to the LiA site, there is no such thing as being gay in the first place). It’s much more about denial and coming up with a way to not have to deal with a family member who is gay than it is about helping or saving the kid.
[/armchair psychologist]
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### Author:  [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2005, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/12 "2005-06-09T02:44:06Z")
> [@Eonwe](#):
>
> I think, **brickbacon** , that the parents’ motivation isn’t salvation for their kids, it’s that being gay is evil (actually, according to the LiA site, there is no such thing as being gay in the first place). It’s much more about denial and coming up with a way to not have to deal with a family member who is gay than it is about helping or saving the kid.
> [/armchair psychologist]
You may be right, however I think there are some people who genuinely believe being gay is a sin that can be corrected. It’s delusional, but they think they are trying to help.
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### Author:  [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2005, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/13 "2005-06-09T03:23:28Z")
This … this breaks my heart.
I wish to Gods I lived nearby so I could give him a safe haven, myself.
He needs to run away. He needs to get out of there as soon as he can, run far away and never look back. Refuse, resist, survive.
A pox on his mock parents; the only sin here is their contingent fiction of parenthood.
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### Author:  [@Campion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Campion)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2005, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/14 "2005-06-09T03:31:36Z")
I want to go find this kid and offer him my parents, who (even though all their kids are straight) would love him and show him what Christian love actually is. Which, um, incidentally, is not all about the hate.
I also would like to go have a chat with his parents. Just talk. All rational-like. I promise. 😃
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### Author:  [@elfbabe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfbabe)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2005, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/15 "2005-06-09T03:43:15Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#):
>
> I wish to Gods I lived nearby so I could give him a safe haven, myself.
Yeah. As soon as I read it, part of my brain started trying to convince me that a road trip to Tennessee was _totally doable_… then I saw that the program started on Monday. Goddamnit.
Poor kid…
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### Author:  [@minty\_green](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/minty_green)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2005, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/16 "2005-06-09T03:59:11Z")
> [@](#):
>
> Meet the Staff of _Love In Action_
Aww yeah, baby. Come to **minty**. I’ll take the lesbian right outta ya.
Oh shit. They’re all guys. Except for the supremely ugly [Diana Hoaglan](http://www.loveinaction.org/default2.aspx?pid=53) and the terribly unattractive [Patricia Roseman and her way gay husband](http://www.loveinaction.org/default2.aspx?pid=55).
How the hell do you ever expect these kids to go hetero if you don’t have role models? Shit, at least take the kids out to Hooters or something.
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### Author:  [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2005, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/17 "2005-06-09T04:27:54Z")
Well, the rules state that HONESTY (their caps) is required at all times.
The rules also state that any violence or words threatening violence will result in immediate expulsion.
I think the kid should _honestly_ declare his desire to cut out the heart of each member of the staff at every opportunity.
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### Author:  [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2005, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/18 "2005-06-09T04:39:53Z")
What exactly _are_ the rights of teenagers in these situations?
Do they not have a right to decide their own religious thoughts, or to write in a journal or alk to friends? They haven’t committed any crime, after all. Do these camps actually have a legal right to deprive kids of their basic civil rights?
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### Author:  [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2005, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/19 "2005-06-09T04:47:32Z")
> [@tomndebb](#):
>
> Well, the rules state that HONESTY (their caps) is required at all times.
>
> The rules also state that any violence or words threatening violence will result in immediate expulsion.
>
> I think the kid should _honestly_ declare his desire to cut out the heart of each member of the staff at every opportunity.
You know, I was going to suggest that. But in all seriousness, even if he tried it, it wouldn’t solve the underlying problem. Who knows what his parents would do to him then.
This is basically a boot camp. The basic rules and regs (hygiene, daily schedule and so forth) are not overly strict, **if** we were talking about delinquent kids who need to get their act together.
But this isn’t that. Presumably, the kids who are sent to this place haven’t been in any trouble with the law or at school. But they’re being treated like criminals just because they’re gay. I also wonder if they have any legal rights. Probably not, though.
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### Author:  [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)
#### Post date: [June 9, 2005, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/20 "2005-06-09T06:53:15Z")
> [@Ooner](#):
>
> They’re going to murder him. They’re going to kill everything that made him who he was. I hope his parents and everyone brainwashing kids in this sick cult fucking roast.
Reading his blog, I think he has a chance. It will hurt, and he will have to deal with a lot of shit – but he sounds like a fighter, that boy, and it doesn’t seem as though he’ll break that easily. And he’s got people down at their gate every day making a joyful noise.
I truly hope that the love and support he’s getting on that blog from angry, righteous Queers and allies shields his heart and gives him strength.
From what I posted to his blog:
> [@](#):
>
> I want you to know that you sound, from your blog entries, as though you possess a lot of determination and strength veiled behind the pain, and it fills me with hope. Even if you are prevented from fighting on the outside, you can fight on the inside, fight for yourself inside your heart, if you know that no person in the world can ever take your identity and your soul away from you.
>
> I’m so glad to see so many people here to tell you that they support and care for you – people you don’t even know, like me. I’m also awed by the protests that I’ve heard about, angry and loving Queers and allies outside the door of that gulag, spreading radical hope and promise. I hope that you hold these things within your heart, as proof against the lies and abuse that these twisted intellects will try to perpetrate on you.
>
> Live, Zach, survive and grow, and you’ll leave the hatred in your dust, and flower into the beautiful adulthood that I can see promised in your brave words.
The sad part, of course, is that not all of this place’s inmates are probably as sure of themselves as he seems to be – and some of them will no doubt fall into the chasm.
:mad: Contemptible, vicious assholes.
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