# "Love" in action and victims of ex-gay brainwashing **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 9, 2005, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531 "2005-06-09T00:41:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/21 "2005-06-09T07:42:15Z")
It still bothers me, though. I know this is not Tranquility Bay, but I read through all the rules and regs, and it seems to me that their “counseling” could turn out to be much like T. Bay, in that they push you and push you to give the answers they want, trying to get you to come up to the mark…and then they move the mark. Also, I wonder if the program schedule is finite, or if they can keep people there indefinitely. Bottom line is that no one should have to be reNeducated for being gay. If parents have a problem adjusting, there’s P-FLAG. It’s their problem, not their kid’s. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/22 "2005-06-09T07:55:40Z")
> [@Rilchiam](#): > > It still bothers me, though. Of course it bothers me too – actually, it scares me shitless for him, and I wish I could make it all go away, preferably with an armoured vehicle. But I do hold out hope for him. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/23 "2005-06-09T08:22:22Z")
Yet one more reason why I ask to be delivered from this state. ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/24 "2005-06-09T08:47:24Z")
Oh, I wasn’t belittling your post, **matt**! I’m just absorbing this. I hadn’t known that the anti-gay crusade had so much muscle. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/25 "2005-06-09T09:27:36Z")
You miserable Pharisees. When a child asks you, “Who is my savior?”, you tell him that his savior is a demon hiding in the bushes by the Gates of Hell, hissing at passers-by who break your rules. You are Hell’s whores. You blind hypocrites. When a son honors his parents with truthfulness, you turn him over to the torturers, sending him to a Saudi Arabian prison in your own backyard, where books are banned, and the despotic oversee the deprived. You are the powers of darkness. You petty microbes. You make up rules and claim to speak for God, even while telling your children that He is a monster who hates them for who they are. You do not speak for God, but for His enemy. You are Satan’s soldiers. You snotty troglodytes. You treat God’s Word as though It were a mill stone, which you place upon the shoulders of others, while you yourselves are unwilling to bear its weight. You should know that God’s Word is Alive, and has commanded you to love. You are vandals of the spirit. You undiscerning idiots. You pick at tiny imperfections until they become festering boils. You shut Heaven’s door to others, while you yourselves would walk right in with the blood of children on your shoes. You are uninvited worms. You are pigs in the garden. You are butchers in the playground. You are storm troopers in the safehouse. You are roadblocks on the path to God. If any man wonders who killed Christ, he need only look at you. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/26 "2005-06-09T09:43:38Z")
Very nice, **Lib**. (I ‘heard’ it in a fine Pentecostal preacher’s voice. Perfect.) ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/27 "2005-06-09T09:44:58Z")
Anyone for sending a bit of [Matthew 23](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2023;&version=31;) and [Matthew 25](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2025:31-46;&version=31;) to these folks? Here’s a selection from those sections: > [@](#): > > 23:1-4 > Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. They tie up heavy loads and put them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them. > > 23:13-15 (Jesus is still speaking or ranting) > "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. > > "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You devour widows’ houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. Therefore you will be punished more severely. > > "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are. > > 23:23-27 (still Jesus) > "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel. > > "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean. > > "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men’s bones and everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness. > > and finally, from 25:41-46, Jesus speaking again, > > "Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ > > "They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ > > "He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ > > “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” It’s interesting that this is one of the few times Jesus refers to damnation, not to mention His take on making converts. These folks make me want to apologize for being a Christian. ☹ CJ ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/28 "2005-06-09T09:46:30Z")
Not to mention my coding! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/29 "2005-06-09T11:16:06Z")
(Sorry, I know this is a serious subject, but my mind turns to what really goes on when the lights go out in Cabin Six. If it is anything like summer camps I knew…) ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/30 "2005-06-09T11:42:10Z")
Dear God. These people are evil. Not ‘well meaning, but wrong’. Evil. I am utterly sickened, beyond my ability to express it ‘_Refuge_’ My hairy ass! Curse them. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/31 "2005-06-09T12:00:44Z")
> [@matt\_mcl](#): > > A pox on his mock parents; the only sin here is their contingent fiction of parenthood. I wouldn’t be so quick to assume that about their parents–I have no reason to believe that they don’t truly love their son and think they’re doing the best thing for him. It makes stuff like this all the more tragic. ---
**Author:** ![auntie\_em](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@auntie\_em](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/auntie_em)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/32 "2005-06-09T12:09:23Z")
OK, in light of the magnitude of fucked-up-ness of this whole scenario, this is a teeny, tiny, more minor than minor issue, but what the heck is up with this? > [@](#): > > The clients may not wear Abercrombie and Fitch or Calvin Klein brand clothing, undergarments, or accessories. I mean, I get the “no provocative attire” rule, and get that A&F and CK have cultivated provocative images, but _come on_–are they the only makers of hoochie wear? Or are they the only two “hip” brand names these people know? (Somebody needs to send that boy some CK socks.) _Sigh_ . . . I joke, but this makes me so very, very sad. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/33 "2005-06-09T12:33:03Z")
> [@minty green](#): > > Oh shit. They’re all guys. Except for the supremely ugly [Diana Hoaglan](http://www.loveinaction.org/default2.aspx?pid=53) and the terribly unattractive [Patricia Roseman and her way gay husband](http://www.loveinaction.org/default2.aspx?pid=55). > > How the hell do you ever expect these kids to go hetero if you don’t have role models? Shit, at least take the kids out to Hooters or something. My thought exactly. 😃 Glad to see I’m not the only sick one here. How on earth are we ever going to straighten them out if we don’t bring in any strippers? On a more serious note, let’s not get too hostile to the parents. The fact that they are trying to “help” their son as opposed to the more common tactic of simply kicking him out of the house says that they at least care (in their own highly delusional way) about him. Save the hate for the camp. It deserves it far more. ---
**Author:** ![Bambi\_Hassenpfeffer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Bambi\_Hassenpfeffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bambi_Hassenpfeffer)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/34 "2005-06-09T12:43:48Z")
> [@auntie em](#): > > I mean, I get the “no provocative attire” rule, and get that A&F and CK have cultivated provocative images, but _come on_–are they the only makers of hoochie wear? Or are they the only two “hip” brand names these people know? I would think it has to do with the homoerotic imagery these two companies (_especially_ A&F) use to sell their products. There are a couple boycott campaigns run by churches and idiot outfits like American Decency against these companies for using sex to sell their products. They don’t bother me, though – the A&F catalog is as close to free porn as you can get in the regular mail. ---
**Author:** ![Wallenstein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b5a626/32.png) [@Wallenstein](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallenstein)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/35 "2005-06-09T12:50:22Z")
Where in the bible does it say that women should shave their legs and armpits twice-weekly? Are lesbians really that hairy?? ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/36 "2005-06-09T12:54:34Z")
> [@e-logic](#): > > Where in the bible does it say that women should shave their legs and armpits twice-weekly? If I may quote from Giletticus 3:14 > [@](#): > > And the Lord spake unto her, and He said thou shalt shave thine legs and armpits no less than twice weekly for women with hair in those regions are an affront to the eyes of thy Lord. > > Women shalt also be encouraged to obtain the wax of Brazilius, for it is hot ---
**Author:** ![auntie\_em](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@auntie\_em](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/auntie_em)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/37 "2005-06-09T12:54:57Z")
> [@Bambi Hassenpfeffer](#): > > I would think it has to do with the homoerotic imagery these two companies (_especially_ A&F) use to sell their products. Ohhhhh, I get it–wearing A&F and CK clothing makes you _gay_. :rolleyes: Seriously, I guess you make a good point, but again, surely those aren’t the only two clothing companies that use homoerotic imagery . . . ? And it seems to me like if you’re _that_ paranoid about homoerotic imagery, you could find it in a **Sears** catalog (I mean people of the same sex, hanging out and posing together in their underwear . . . ) ---
**Author:** ![Hamadryad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6de8d8/32.png) [@Hamadryad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamadryad)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/38 "2005-06-09T12:58:01Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > I think, **brickbacon** , that the parents’ motivation isn’t salvation for their kids, it’s that being gay is evil (actually, according to the LiA site, there is no such thing as being gay in the first place). It’s much more about denial and coming up with a way to not have to deal with a family member who is gay than it is about helping or saving the kid. > [/armchair psychologist] I think there’s also a hefty dose of, “They will cure my son and then I can live out my life comfortable in the knowledge that **I** didn’t fuck up.” Sending their kid to one of these places absolves them of being “bad parents who raised their kid wrong.” They DIDN’T raise the kid wrong and they’re NOT bad parents, but why else would a child from a loving, Christian household be gay? I think it’s pure selfishness on the part of the parents, and I don’t think “they are trying to do the right thing” excuses them in the slightest. Christians who hate, Republicans who spend, freshly born again Democrats…WHAT do I have to do to move to Canada, again?\* - Can’t at the moment, or I’d honestly be looking into it. I’m terrified of living in a theocracy. ---
**Author:** ![auntie\_em](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@auntie\_em](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/auntie_em)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/39 "2005-06-09T13:06:16Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > If I may quote from Giletticus 3:14 Thanks. I needed that. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/40 "2005-06-09T13:09:44Z")
Oh, that poor, poor boy. If I could, I’d take him in myself-I just want to cry. These camps sound like something out of Soviet Russia-didn’t they have “re-education camps” where they sent dissenters? I hope these places can be shut down, and the people responsible charged with child abuse. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531.md?page=3)