# "Love" in action and victims of ex-gay brainwashing **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 9, 2005, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531 "2005-06-09T00:41:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/61 "2005-06-09T16:34:55Z")
> [@](#): > > The clients may not wear Abercrombie and Fitch or Calvin Klein brand clothing, undergarments, or accessories. And what? Prada is okay? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/62 "2005-06-09T17:02:36Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > If I were a multi-millionaire, I would fund research into the causes & treatments of homosexual orientation & behavior. While you’re at it, I’ve got a bridge for sale… ---
**Author:** ![andygirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9adbd/32.png) [@andygirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andygirl)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/63 "2005-06-09T17:20:15Z")
A few years ago my classmate Darryl came out to his parents. They wanted to send him to something like this under punishment of disownment. He killed himself a few days later. In the student union they had a card thing up to send condolences to his parents and it took every ounce of strength I had not to write, “I hope you’re happy that you killed your son.” He should have been with the rest of us at graduation. More and more of these camps are being sent overseas because they’re being prosecuted for child abuse. They are disgusting, vile institutions that have no place on this earth. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/64 "2005-06-09T17:22:40Z")
FriarTed If you’re still around, I really would appreciate your responses to my questions. I know that pile-ons are unpleasant, but I do not join with others in thinking you’re a hypocrite or anything. (Well, at least not yet.) I’m honestly just trying to understand your reasoning. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/65 "2005-06-09T17:24:29Z")
> [@andygirl](#): > > More and more of these camps are being sent overseas because they’re being prosecuted for child abuse. Do you have a cite for that? ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/66 "2005-06-09T17:26:11Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Who commits an evil act, and actually believes what they are doing is evil? Well, lots of people. Crimes are often comitted in the heat of passion, when emotion trumps moral restraint. And even if you look at premeditated acts, people still know what they’re doing is wrong–they just do it anyways, for whatever reason. In fact, given that our legal system treats people who can’t tell right from wrong differently from those who can, and that those who can are the overwhelming majority of criminals, you could argue that lots and lots and lots of people believe what they’re doing is evil, but do it anyways. It’s entirely plausible that the parents in this case believe they’re doing the right thing; that keeping their son from performing homosexual acts will get him into heaven and save his eternal soul. I think they (and **FriarTed** ) are wrong, and are causing/would cause great harm, but I don’t think they’re bad people. ---
**Author:** ![Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/58956e/32.png) [@Hoodoo\_Ulove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoodoo_Ulove)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/67 "2005-06-09T17:34:26Z")
I especially like the motto “Finding freedom in Jesus Christ”. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/68 "2005-06-09T17:41:05Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Do you have a cite for that? There was a thread here a while back about a camp down south somewhere (in the Caribbean?) that isolated and tried to brainwash kids in this way. I’m not sure what to search on, though. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/69 "2005-06-09T17:47:39Z")
> [@Sunspace](#): > > There was a thread here a while back about a camp down south somewhere (in the Caribbean?) that isolated and tried to brainwash kids in this way. > > I’m not sure what to search on, though. I’ll just take your word on that. But the fact that there are Christian camps all over the world does not equate to the claim that more and more of them are heading oversees and being prosecuted for child abuse. There have always been Christian camps all over the world I was looking for something to back up the claim that there are increasing instances of actual prosecutions combined with emigration. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/70 "2005-06-09T17:48:24Z")
Fair point, **Metacom**. Still, there are a lot of people out there doing pretty evil things in the surety that they’re performing good deeds. Most racists, it seems, are pretty self-righteous about their racism. Most homophobes too. If some guy burns down a synagogue because he thinks he’s protecting the white race from the international Jewish banking conspiracy, is he any less evil? I don’t think so, but I’ve got a very results-oriented morality. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/71 "2005-06-09T17:49:02Z")
> [@Hoodoo Ulove](#): > > I especially like the motto “Finding freedom in Jesus Christ”. I never thought, until now, that anyone could abuse the term “freedom” and strip it of all its meaning more than George W. Bush. ---
**Author:** ![Good\_Egg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/96bed5/32.png) [@Good\_Egg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Good_Egg)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/72 "2005-06-09T17:53:49Z")
> [@andygirl](#): > > A few years ago my classmate Darryl came out to his parents. They wanted to send him to something like this under punishment of disownment. He killed himself a few days later. > > . They probably also said he killed himself because he was gay. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/73 "2005-06-09T18:01:59Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Evil? Come on. If there are evil people, they are people serial killers and child molesters. This isn’t evil. It’s certainly wrong, misguided, etc., but evil seems a little harsh. Just because it’s not murder or rape doesn’t mean it’s not evil. The ONLY thing I could grant is that these people are acting out of ignorance rather than outright malice. But it’s still evil and cruel. Did you even see the list Zach had on his blog? (As for never having grandchildren, there are gay parents out there. Surrogates, artificial insemination, adoption, etc. Jesus). ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/74 "2005-06-09T18:03:17Z")
> [@istara](#): > > No, just a hypocrite. Nope- confused, conflicted, self-contradictory I may be. A hypocrite I am not. If I were a hypocrite, I would pretend that no contradictions existed in my attitudes & behavior. A hyprocrite literally is a playactor. Learn the meanings of epithets before you use them. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/75 "2005-06-09T18:23:50Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > I certainly don’t hate you, but if you’ll bear with me, I have a few questions. They are sincere, even though they might sound weird to you. > > What if your kid were straight and had, say, a toe fetish? Would you still be alarmed? And would a toe fetish be better than, say, a shoe fetish (human versus inanimate)? I guess what I’m asking is whether there some standard deviation from the mean that you would tolerate. If he spilled his see through oral sex, for example, would he need therapy? What if he liked fat women? Or bondage, but with women? Is being an ass man worse than being a breast man? What if he had anal sex, but with his wife? > > Finally, if your kid were gay, would it be better for him from his perspective if he just lied to you until he turned eighteen? Would he be better off making friends outside the house, with whom he can be himself? None of the other stuff you mentioned has been condemned in Judaic & Christian scripture. I believe that Paul was speaking for God/Jesus in Romans 1 & I Corinthians 6, that he was indeed referring to all homosexual sex acts- not rape, pederasty or cultic sex acts, and that one can deal with such desires through commitment to Jesus. I don’t believe guaranteed cures or deliverance or reorientation is possible for everyone, but I believe every rational & sane person can control their sexual behavior. Btw, I’ve read the pro-gay responses to the Paulian passages, I’ve honestly looked to see if the historical Christian position might be misinterpreting them. I have yet to be convinced. I would like to be convinced. I have gay friends whom I would love to be able to tell “It’s OK- the Bible does not condemn gay sex. Keep it in a committed relationship & go on to trust Jesus.” But I can’t be honest to my belief in the Bible & say that. And like I said before, the ideas behind this camp are awful. Don’t train the family in showing proper affection & warmth. Don’t allow proper affection & warmth between kids. Just repress, repress, repress. Hell, if that’s not a recipe for disaster, I don’t know what is. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/76 "2005-06-09T18:30:36Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > And like I said before, the ideas behind this camp are awful. Don’t train the family in showing proper affection & warmth. Don’t allow proper affection & warmth between kids. Just repress, repress, repress. Hell, if that’s not a recipe for disaster, I don’t know what is. How is would the programs you would fund, if you were a millionaire, be any different? What happens when your programs (inevitably) fail? And how many failures would it take for you to stop wasting your money? ---
**Author:** ![Tracy\_Lord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@Tracy\_Lord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tracy_Lord)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/77 "2005-06-09T18:37:09Z")
> [@Hoodoo Ulove](#): > > I especially like the motto “Finding freedom in Jesus Christ”. I’m guessing that’s freedom _from_, not freedom _of_. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/78 "2005-06-09T18:37:18Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Evil? Come on. If there are evil people, they are people serial killers and child molesters. This isn’t evil. It’s certainly wrong, misguided, etc., but evil seems a little harsh. Evil is as evil does. What these blindly misguided people are doing is evil, and if they bothered to _think_ about the regime they’re imposing on their child, they’d know that. So: They haven’t thought about it, which is _evil of neglect_, leading to great risk of grievous emotional harm to their child, - or - They don’t care about the regime, so long as they get results, which is the _evil of indifference_ to the great risk of grievous emotional harm to their child, - or - They _have_ thought about it, and _intend_ the regime they’re imposing, which is the _evil of intention_ of great risk of grievous emotional harm to their child. A pox and a plague upon these parents, and may they know no rest in this world until such time as they come to _accept_ their child as he is. ---
**Author:** ![Dung\_Beetle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dung_beetle/32/7945_2.png) [@Dung\_Beetle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dung_Beetle)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/79 "2005-06-09T18:45:17Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Btw, I’ve read the pro-gay responses to the Paulian passages, I’ve honestly looked to see if the historical Christian position might be misinterpreting them. > I have yet to be convinced. I would like to be convinced. I have gay friends whom I would love to be able to tell “It’s OK- the Bible does not condemn gay sex. Keep it in a committed relationship & go on to trust Jesus.” But I can’t be honest to my belief in the Bible & say that. I’m glad to see that you are trying to educate and inform yourself. Many Christians I know seem to be happy enough with, “because my pastor said so.” My next question to you would be: Is the Bible really the correctly translated Word of God? (Even when I was a believer, I had grave doubts about that one.) ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/80 "2005-06-09T18:46:45Z")
\*\*Friar[/b[, There is no such thing as “Christ centered (or any other religiously based) psychotherapy.” Clinical psychology strives to be as empirical and objective as possible and that means it cannot be polluted by _a priori_ religious beliefs or assumptions. The idea that homosexuality requires treatment is completely _at odds_ with the medical community. Religious indoctrination is not psychotherapy. Incidentally, do you believe that teenagers have a right to free practice of religion? Do they have a right _not_ to follow the beliefs of their parents? If your teenage son told you he didn’t believe in Jesus would you try to force him to believe against his will? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531.md?page=5)