# "Love" in action and victims of ex-gay brainwashing **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 9, 2005, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531 "2005-06-09T00:41:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/81 "2005-06-09T18:49:03Z")
I can’t help but think the people who are defending the parents had good parents. I may be totally wrong here, but I have noticed a huge tendency amongst children from good homes to disbelieve that moderately bad parents can be deliberately cruel and evil. You show these people sexual abuse or physical abuse and they believe you of course, but they never, ever believe emotional abuse. I was emotionally abused from age 14 to age 21. No way am I comparing my situation to this kid or victims of sexual or physical abuse, but it wasn’t pleasant. It all stems from parents wanting to make kids over in their own image. And, that, if not controlled, can be an evil impulse. And leads to many horrible things you do to your kids, in the name of “what’s good for them”. Yuppers, the parents are evil. They make no attempt to understand the child is a separate entity from them and will be different. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/82 "2005-06-09T18:50:38Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > None of the other stuff you mentioned has been condemned in Judaic & Christian scripture. I believe that Paul was speaking for God/Jesus in Romans 1 & I Corinthians 6, that he was indeed referring to all homosexual sex acts- not rape, pederasty or cultic sex acts, and that one can deal with such desires through commitment to Jesus. I don’t believe guaranteed cures or deliverance or reorientation is possible for everyone, but I believe every rational & sane person can control their sexual behavior. > > Btw, I’ve read the pro-gay responses to the Paulian passages, I’ve honestly looked to see if the historical Christian position might be misinterpreting them. > I have yet to be convinced. I would like to be convinced. I have gay friends whom I would love to be able to tell “It’s OK- the Bible does not condemn gay sex. Keep it in a committed relationship & go on to trust Jesus.” But I can’t be honest to my belief in the Bible & say that. > > And like I said before, the ideas behind this camp are awful. Don’t train the family in showing proper affection & warmth. Don’t allow proper affection & warmth between kids. Just repress, repress, repress. Hell, if that’s not a recipe for disaster, I don’t know what is. So you believe the Pauline passages condemn all homosexuality just because you believe it, even though the plain text doesn’t say that? What is your basis for this conclusion? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/83 "2005-06-09T18:55:41Z")
> [@Sunspace](#): > > There was a thread here a while back about a camp down south somewhere (in the Caribbean?) that isolated and tried to brainwash kids in this way. > > I’m not sure what to search on, though. I searched the term “Jamaica” for threads in the Pit. [Found this on Page 2 of my results.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=196096) NB : Tranquillity Bay was mentioned upthread on page one. Tranquillity Bay does (or did, I didn’t check) not represent itself as a sexual reorientation facility Tranquillity Bay (IIRC) does not represent itself as a Christianity-intensive facility ---
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/84 "2005-06-09T19:06:42Z")
Jesus doesn’t like nightgowns or sleeveless t-shirts or books or education Jesus doesn’t like necklaces or hair dye or facial hair or men wearing sandals without socks Jesus doesn’t like you to have friends or hugs or free-will or privacy I’m not quite sure who their Jesus is, but I don’t like him very much. The Jesus I believe in is all about loving your fellow human beings as much, and in the same way that you love yourself. He’s all about freedom to think and dream and feel and imagine. He’s all about not judging your fellow man, and dealing with your own beams before you deal with someone else’s motes. He’s all about acceptance and affirmation, not rejection or condemnation. I don’t know who these people believe in, but it’s not Jesus. ---
**Author:** ![elfbabe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b782af/32.png) [@elfbabe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfbabe)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/85 "2005-06-09T19:07:57Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > But the fact that there are Christian camps all over the world does not equate to the claim that more and more of them are heading oversees and being prosecuted for child abuse. There have always been Christian camps all over the world I was looking for something to back up the claim that there are increasing instances of actual prosecutions combined with emigration. **Lib** , I think that the type of camps **andygirl** and **Sunspace** were referring to is radical behavior-modification camps, rather than Christian camps. There’s a certain overlap, obviously, but I think that most Christian camps are still engaged in activities like singing songs about how awesome Jesus is and making lanyards. I’d look up a cite, but I’m at work. ---
**Author:** ![Fionn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Fionn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fionn)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/86 "2005-06-09T19:10:13Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > There is no such thing as “Christ centered (or any other religiously based) psychotherapy.” Clinical psychology strives to be as empirical and objective as possible and that means it cannot be polluted by _a priori_ religious beliefs or assumptions. The idea that homosexuality requires treatment is completely _at odds_ with the medical community. Religious indoctrination is not psychotherapy. While I agree with this, there are unfortunately no restrictions on who can call themselves a psychotherapist. In my state, you have to have a doctorate in clinical psychology, counseling psychology or education and pass the state licensure exam to call yourself a psychologist, but not to be a psychotherapist. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/87 "2005-06-09T19:10:46Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > I searched the term “Jamaica” for threads in the Pit. [Found this on Page 2 of my results.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=196096) > > NB : > Tranquillity Bay was mentioned upthread on page one. > Tranquillity Bay does (or did, I didn’t check) not represent itself as a sexual reorientation facility > Tranquillity Bay (IIRC) does not represent itself as a Christianity-intensive facility Okay, thanks. That’s the one I was thinking of. I think I spelled Tranquillity Bay wrong, then. (It has two L’s?) I was thinking of the extreme nature of the ‘reprogramming’ and the enforced isolation of the inmates in these two specific camps, not the goals or the religiosity of camps in general. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/88 "2005-06-09T19:12:02Z")
> [@irishgirl](#): > > Jesus doesn’t like…men wearing sandals without socks I thought it was sandals _with_ socks that was the abomination, and that sometimes wearing sandals with socks was what made me a Godless Heathen 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/89 "2005-06-09T19:18:05Z")
> [@elfbabe](#): > > **Lib** , I think that the type of camps **andygirl** and **Sunspace** were referring to is radical behavior-modification camps, rather than Christian camps. There’s a certain overlap, obviously, but I think that most Christian camps are still engaged in activities like singing songs about how awesome Jesus is and making lanyards. Yes, that’s it exactly. I didn’t know what to call them. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/90 "2005-06-09T19:20:51Z")
**Diogenes the Cynic** > [@](#): > > So you believe the Pauline passages condemn all homosexuality just because you believe it, even though the plain text doesn’t say that? What is your basis for this conclusion? It’s called homophobia. Whether it’s brought upon by latent homosexuality, machismo, hatred or intolerance of those who are diiferent, scriptural reference is just a way to reconcile that view. Why is it that some of us tried and true heterosexuals can just go through life without a care as to what others do in their bedroooms? Oh yeah, we can think for ourselves. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/91 "2005-06-09T19:21:41Z")
> [@Anne Neville](#): > > I thought it was sandals _with_ socks that was the abomination, and that sometimes wearing sandals with socks was what made me a Godless Heathen 😕 Nah, it just makes you Canadian. Even if you aren’t. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/92 "2005-06-09T19:27:56Z")
If you must wear socks ( am I really about to say this?) just go ahead and wear athletic shoes. Ughh!!! ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/93 "2005-06-09T19:29:56Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > How is would the programs you would fund, if you were a millionaire, be any different? What happens when your programs (inevitably) fail? And how many failures would it take for you to stop wasting your money? It’s Scripture. The fact that the effort fails just means God is testing them. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Soapbox\_Monkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed655f/32.png) [@Soapbox\_Monkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Soapbox_Monkey)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/94 "2005-06-09T19:44:43Z")
> [@Dung Beetle](#): > > My next question to you would be: Is the Bible really the correctly translated Word of God? Highly doubtful. I find it laughable that people truly believe that someone as hateful and ignorant as Paul could have been speaking for someone as loving and compassionate as Jesus apparently was. When the Word of an Infallible God is written by the Hands of Sinful and Prideful Men, something is bound to get lost in the translation. ---
**Author:** ![SolGrundy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@SolGrundy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SolGrundy)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/95 "2005-06-09T19:45:15Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Btw, I’ve read the pro-gay responses to the Paulian passages, I’ve honestly looked to see if the historical Christian position might be misinterpreting them. > I have yet to be convinced. I would like to be convinced. I have gay friends whom I would love to be able to tell “It’s OK- the Bible does not condemn gay sex. Keep it in a committed relationship & go on to trust Jesus.” But I can’t be honest to my belief in the Bible & say that. Then while you’re being honest with yourself, ask yourself what are your motivations behind this. You make no bones about chiming into any thread about homosexuality, like this one, and saying how you believe it’s wrong, it’s a sin, you’d do what you can to keep people from engaging in the “lifestyle,” and telling others that people will only listen to what they want to hear. But what are your motivations? Why the involvement? Are these gay friends of yours unhappy in their relationships, and/or with their spirituality? Do they want or need to hear your opinion? Your beliefs obviously extend to ministering to the troubled to help them find Christ as you see Him – but do you speak out against homosexuality and advocate psychotherapy out of a genuine desire to help people who are unhappy, or merely to further and advocate your own beliefs? You can see in this thread and just about any other, that people are quick to make jokes about homosexuality and dismiss it as nothing more than lust and carnality and promiscuity. And I’ve read so many accounts of people who’ve gone through these “ex-gay” things as adults, and they read like people who’re unhappy with their lives and feel that something is missing, and they blame their homosexuality as the most obvious culprit. But what about those who do lead satisfying lives and are content with their relationships and their spirituality? What about those for whom it really is about love and respect and honor, and not just about lust? What about those for whom there is no doubt? Do you believe that God has simply abandoned them? Or has God simply given them a path that’s different from your own? The reason I don’t believe in witnessing is because I asked the same question many years ago, not about sexuality but about differing religions, and never got a satisfying response – my parents and childhood church raised me to believe that all those who don’t accept Christ are not “saved.” And that never made sense to me; if a person of Jewish faith, or a Muslim, or an atheist, is happy with his religion and his spirituality and is not suffering from a life without Christ, then he has no reason to convert to my religion. Why would God put a person in that situation, unless he were petty and vindictive and randomly choosing “haves” vs. “have-nots?” > [@FriarTed](#): > > And like I said before, the ideas behind this camp are awful. Don’t train the family in showing proper affection & warmth. Don’t allow proper affection & warmth between kids. Just repress, repress, repress. Hell, if that’s not a recipe for disaster, I don’t know what is. Well, if you genuinely recognize that, then that’s a start. The only thing that I’d hope we all can agree on is that without real communication and compassion, there’s nothing more than hate and fear and mistrust and confusion. The only part I agree with the “ex-gay ministries” about is that there are people out there who will try to deceive and manipulate others who are troubled, to satisfy their own agendas and support their own rationalizations to make their own lives and beliefs make sense. This can take the form of gay people who want nothing more than to justify their own sexuality, or self-described religious people who want nothing more than to justify and further their religious beliefs. Either way, the person at the center remains troubled and is kept from being able to have the life he or she wants. Where is the genuine compassion, instead of politics and dogma and agendas? ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/96 "2005-06-09T19:46:42Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > …Why is it that some of us tried and true heterosexuals can just go through life without a care as to what others do in their bedroooms? > Oh yeah, we can think for ourselves. I am not usually one to post just for the sake of agreeing with another poster, but in this case I will chime in to do just that. The amount of time and energy that some folks are putting into the lives of others seems to me to be at the very least a little bit off and, usually, a bit pathological. ---
**Author:** ![HPL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3da27b/32.png) [@HPL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HPL)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/97 "2005-06-09T19:55:21Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Oh, that poor, poor boy. If I could, I’d take him in myself-I just want to cry. > > These camps sound like something out of Soviet Russia-didn’t they have “re-education camps” where they sent dissenters? I can’t remember if they did or not. I know the Soviets loved to send people to Gulags where they’d often get worked to death in short order. At least during the Stalin era, it would seem that re-education was a not big priority for them. ---
**Author:** ![Cerowyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/82dd89/32.png) [@Cerowyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cerowyn)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/98 "2005-06-09T20:05:34Z")
> [@Hamadryad](#): > > Christians who hate, Republicans who spend, freshly born again Democrats…WHAT do I have to do to move to Canada, again?\* Well, you could marry a COTAS\*. - Canadian of the Appropriate Sex, since we _do_ still allow mixed sex marriages\*\*. \*\* Oh, **and** same sex marriages. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/99 "2005-06-09T20:07:39Z")
Is there a way we can get together and go rescue the kid? In a commando operation of some sort? We’ll assemble a black-ops crew and fly in with helicopters, drop ladders, and any “client” of the program who wants can be carried away to safety. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/100 "2005-06-09T20:10:36Z")
To hell with the black ops approach. Storm the gates in broad daylight, a’la the Bastille. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531.md?page=6)