# "Love" in action and victims of ex-gay brainwashing **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 9, 2005, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531 "2005-06-09T00:41:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/121 "2005-06-09T22:49:30Z")
That is not neccesarily strictly gay behavior by the way. ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/122 "2005-06-09T22:50:55Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > That is not neccesarily strictly gay behavior by the way. What? Trying to shove anal beads up an Ox’s ass? I never said that it was. ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/123 "2005-06-09T22:52:23Z")
I thought that was Neal Horsley… ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/124 "2005-06-09T22:54:56Z")
> [@Binarydrone](#): > > What? Trying to shove anal beads up an Ox’s ass? I never said that it was. If that’s a boy ox, yer goin’ straight ta Hell, **Binarydrone**! ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/125 "2005-06-09T22:55:46Z")
> [@Binarydrone](#): > > brickbacon, I am trying to get where you are coming from, and am just having a difficult time. To be honest, your post here is sort of a perfect example of something that has been annoying me for some time now. > > See, to me there is really no gray area here. Either you believe that doing this is OK, or you believe that it is a form of Child abuse. When I see posts like yours that are nit-picking because you don’t like the fact that someone called this _evil_., I can not help but think that what is really going on is that you actually agree with what the parents are doing, but don’t quite have the sack to come out and state your position with clarity. Almost every situation has some gray area, including this one. My problem with threads like this is that everyone is so quick to demonize the target. I don’t agree with the parents, and I think they are probably homophobic religious nutcases, but I don’t know that. If I agreed with what they were doing, I’d admit it, and take all the criticism (as I have done in other threads). > [@Binarydrone](#): > > There is also Biblical support for beating children, yet I doubt that we would see this sort of pedantic nit-picking if the thread were about Fundamentalists that were beating their kids. Well, I don’t always think it’s wrong to beat you kids (within reason), but that’s beside the point. It’s not the fact that they may have a sincere belief in the Bible that makes this a gray area for me. It’s that I don’t have many facts about this situation. > [@Binarydrone](#): > > I will state, so that there is no misunderstanding, that I believe it to be true that a person’s sexual identity is a fundamental and inherent part of who they are as a human. I will further state that sending a child off to have that fundamental part of their being squashed is nothing less than a form of child abuse, and that (surprise!) I think that child abuse is evil. Fundamental and inherent? Probably, but who knows. Either way, you don’t know whether an individual is actually gay or not. There are plenty of people who are “heterosexual”, but are really gay (and vice-versa). Furthermore, there are plenty of people that would rather be “right with God” then to engage in homosexual behavior. > [@Binarydrone](#): > > I get that their intent is good, and that they are trying to lead their son to salvation. That fails to prevent the results of their actions from being evil. Depends on your definition of evil. I reserve that word for only the most heinous acts. This isn’t one of them. > [@Binarydrone](#): > > None of this is to deny that evil is on a spectrum. That, in other words, some acts of evil are more evil than others. This is why your post is so bizarre to me. It is like if I started a thread complaining someone stealing from me, and calling that person evil and you piping in all scandalized that I am calling that evil because the Nazis used to steel the gold from people’s teeth in Auschwitz. That is funny, but I respectfully disagree. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/126 "2005-06-09T22:59:36Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > There’s no evidence to support your assertion, not that I’ve ever heard, anyway. > > Two of the most prominent founders of the ex-gay movement went ex-ex-gay. Together. > > Furthermore, this young man is clearly fine with who he is - if an adult wishes to change, and voluntarily enters such a program, well, it’s their perogative. If you believe it would be okay if it worked, for a parent to get their teenage son’s sexuality altered to suit their own needs, then I don’t know what to say. That’s a sick attitude. However, there’s no evidence that anyone has ever been ‘converted’ by these programs, and again - you don’t understand much about human sexuality if you doubt that. Bullshit! Now you are being condescending. Parents try to change the way their kids act all the time for various reasons. It’s not always altered to suit their own needs. I will bet there are at least a few people who have been converted. I don’t know what evidence to present because most of the stuff has a clear bias. However, that bias doesn’t mean it’s wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/127 "2005-06-09T23:06:42Z")
So let them make that choice on their own, jackass. **brickbacon** , this kid does not WANT to change, he’s there against his will. That’s not evil? Fuck you. ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/128 "2005-06-09T23:16:09Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Fundamental and inherent? Probably, but who knows. Either way, you don’t know whether an individual is actually gay or not. There are plenty of people who are “heterosexual”, but are really gay (and vice-versa). Furthermore, there are plenty of people that would rather be “right with God” then to engage in homosexual behavior. This kid is not among those people. He _wants_ to be gay. For the life of me, I still can’t figure out how that makes you not “right with God.” But that’s just me. The fact that his parents aren’t okay with it is entirely thier problem. Not his. Sending him off to brainwash camp is forcing him to lie to himself and everyone else about who he is and accept a life he will be miserable in to satisfy them. Essentially: He will be in a living fucking hell so his parents will feel good. Does that make it a bit clearer? > [@](#): > > Depends on your definition of evil. I reserve that word for only the most heinous acts. This isn’t one of them. Treating people like things is evil. Destroying someone’s life so you can feel good about yourself is evil. Torturing someone and getting a “religious high” out of it is fucking well evil. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/129 "2005-06-09T23:19:04Z")
> [@jimpatro](#): > > **brickbacon** , it’s statements like: > > “These camps must work for some people.” > > that make it appear you don’t quite get it when it comes to human sexuality. > If I were whisked away to a camp and converted to homosexuality, it didn’t “work.” It’s simply a human abomination. One doesn’t just reverse one’s natural sexual orientation. Not for real, and not for long. Perhaps, but who is to say the kid is actually gay? Plenty of people think they are of one orientation at one point in their lives, then they realize they are something else. You make a lot of assumptions about human sexuality that simply aren’t supported by the facts. It may not be a on/off thing. If it’s a spectrum from heterosexuality to homosexuality, he could be anywhere along that line. You act as if all these things you say are proven facts. Also, what if he decided the faith his parents practice is more important to him than being a practicing homosexual. Is that wrong? That said, this camp is a dumb idea to me because I doubt it will work and it’s unnecessary since being gay, IMO, is not wrong. But, the outrage you guys have is based on a lot of assumption on human sexuality that you cannot prove. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/130 "2005-06-09T23:24:26Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > So let them make that choice on their own, jackass. **brickbacon** , this kid does not WANT to change, he’s there against his will. That’s not evil? Fuck you. He’s a kid, and kids don’t always get to make their own choices. I repeat, this may be stupid, but it’s not evil, OK shitface? > [@Maureen](#): > > This kid is not among those people. He _wants_ to be gay. For the life of me, I still can’t figure out how that makes you not “right with God.” But that’s just me. The fact that his parents aren’t okay with it is entirely thier problem. Not his. Sending him off to brainwash camp is forcing him to lie to himself and everyone else about who he is and accept a life he will be miserable in to satisfy them. Essentially: He will be in a living fucking hell so his parents will feel good. Does that make it a bit clearer? Can you predict the future? You are making a lot of assumptions about what’s gonna happen to this kid. > [@Maureen](#): > > Treating people like things is evil. Destroying someone’s life so you can feel good about yourself is evil. Torturing someone and getting a “religious high” out of it is fucking well evil. Again, all speculation. ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/131 "2005-06-09T23:26:23Z")
How is your opinion recorded fact, and mine speculation? Brainwashing is a form of torture. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/132 "2005-06-09T23:30:19Z")
> [@Maureen](#): > > How is your opinion recorded fact, and mine speculation? > Brainwashing is a form of torture. When have I ever said what would happen to this kid in the future? That is speculation. You are assuming this camp is brainwashing people. What evidence do you have that this is the case. Convincing someone to change their behavior isn’t always brainwashing. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/133 "2005-06-09T23:33:50Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > But, the outrage you guys have is based on a lot of assumption on human sexuality that you cannot prove. Tell me, does it matter to you the number of mainstream psychological associations that have stated, based on the research available to them, that conversion therapy is harmful and contraindicated? From the APA’s site on conversion therapy: > [@](#): > > The most important fact about “reparative therapy,” also sometimes known as “conversion” therapy, is that it is based on an understanding of homosexuality that has been rejected by all the major health and mental health professions. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the National Association of School Psychologists, and the National Association of Social Workers, together representing more than 477,000 health and mental health professionals, have all taken the position that homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus there is no need for a “cure.” > [@](#): > > The American Academy of Pediatrics in its policy statement on Homosexuality and Adolescence states: … Therapy directed specifically at changing sexual orientation is contraindicated, since it can provoke guilt and anxiety while having little or no potential for achieving changes in orientation. > [@](#): > > The American Counseling Association… at its 1999 World Conference… adopted a position opposing the promotion of “reparative therapy” as a “cure” for individuals who are homosexual. > [@this is the important one](#): > > The American Psychiatric Association in its position statement on Psychiatric Treatment and Sexual Orientation states: The potential risks of “reparative therapy” are great, including depression, anxiety and self-destructive behavior, since therapist alignment with societal prejudices against homosexuality may reinforce self-hatred already experienced by the patient. Many patients who have undergone “reparative therapy” relate that they were inaccurately told that homosexuals are lonely, unhappy individuals who never achieve acceptance or satisfaction. The possibility that the person might achieve happiness and satisfying interpersonal relationships as a gay man or lesbian is not presented, nor are alternative approaches to dealing with the effects of societal stigmatization discussed. [APA](http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbc/publications/justthefacts.html#2) ---
**Author:** ![Priam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/77aa72/32.png) [@Priam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Priam)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/134 "2005-06-09T23:34:11Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Perhaps, but who is to say the kid is actually gay? Plenty of people think they are of one orientation at one point in their lives, then they realize they are something else. You make a lot of assumptions about human sexuality that simply aren’t supported by the facts. It may not be a on/off thing. If it’s a spectrum from heterosexuality to homosexuality, he could be anywhere along that line. You act as if all these things you say are proven facts. > > Also, what if he decided the faith his parents practice is more important to him than being a practicing homosexual. Is that wrong? That said, this camp is a dumb idea to me because I doubt it will work and it’s unnecessary since being gay, IMO, is not wrong. But, the outrage you guys have is based on a lot of assumption on human sexuality that you cannot prove. He’s _sixteen years old_. This is not exactly a child whining that he wants another piece of candy, but a human being nearing adulthood who has at least some idea of consequences and ethicality. He has no desire to be in these camps. His posts make it very clear that he is only attending out of fear of losing parental support. He otherwise seems healthy and reasonably well-balanced for a teenager. Where is the justification for parental intervention? Heck, I’d be pretty mad if parents forced their teenager to attend AA meetings, because it all hinges on whether or not the person involved believes they have a problem. I really do think you’re crossing the line from devil’s advocate to simply irrational. ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/135 "2005-06-09T23:34:43Z")
Convincing someone to change their behaviour is one thing. Consistently training someone in a controlled and abnormal environment (environment other than that which they are used to) by drastically changing their daily routine and setting up a series of “goals” to reach a certain end (I am not gay) with a set of rewards and punishments for correct and incorrect responses is brainwashing. ---
**Author:** ![Fionn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Fionn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fionn)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/136 "2005-06-09T23:39:10Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Perhaps, but who is to say the kid is actually gay? Why is it not good enough for the kid to say he’s actually gay? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/137 "2005-06-09T23:42:23Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Are you really comparing sending your kid to a dumbass camp to molesting a child or murdering someone? That’s a really stupid comparison to make. Yes, I am comparing sending your kid to one of these camps to murder or molesting a kid. That doesn’t imply that they are equal. Murder and molestation are obviously much, much worse. I would put camps like this on par with, say, beating your kid. It’s emotional abuse, not physical, so maybe just a hair better, but I think all these acts are absolutely in the same ballpark, and that ballpark is the ballpark of evil. > [@](#): > > Here’s the definition of evil. > > _1 a : morally reprehensible : SINFUL, WICKED \ b : arising from actual or imputed bad character or conduct \_ Yes, that is precisely the definition of evil under which I am operating. > [@](#): > > Is sending your kid to this camp morally reprehensible? Maybe. If your moral code (like many Americans and others around the world) is based on the Bible, then such actions are probably not morally wrong. I don’t excuse immoral behavior because of religion. Religion is a choice. **Liberal** and **FriarTed** both practice the same religion. One of them has chosen to interpret their holy book in a way that does not denigrate or discriminate against their fellow humans. One has chose to interpret it in a way that does. I don’t see, in a situation like this, how you can blame the book, and not the person reading it, for the conclusions they draw. > [@](#): > > Is sending your kid to this camp a decision which arose from bad character or conduct? Maybe. We don’t know these people so it’s really hard to tell. All I’m saying is that evil is a stretch. Why do people have to demonize others when being wrong is more than enough? We don’t know anything about these people, and we don’t know their motivations. Because “being wrong” does not express the depths of my loathing for the people who run these camps. Saying that I’m demonizing them is an insult to demons everywhere. > [@](#): > > I realize that they lie about their success rate, but I think we can both agree that is above 0% No, I’m afraid we can’t. ---
**Author:** ![SolGrundy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@SolGrundy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SolGrundy)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/138 "2005-06-09T23:44:23Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Perhaps, but who is to say the kid is actually gay? Plenty of people think they are of one orientation at one point in their lives, then they realize they are something else. You make a lot of assumptions about human sexuality that simply aren’t supported by the facts. It may not be a on/off thing. If it’s a spectrum from heterosexuality to homosexuality, he could be anywhere along that line. You act as if all these things you say are proven facts. > > Also, what if he decided the faith his parents practice is more important to him than being a practicing homosexual. Is that wrong? That said, this camp is a dumb idea to me because I doubt it will work and it’s unnecessary since being gay, IMO, is not wrong. But, the outrage you guys have is based on a lot of assumption on human sexuality that you cannot prove. Your points would have merit if this thread were about a voluntary program for adults who are having issues with their sexuality, their relationships, and their spirituality to find answers to their problems. But it’s not. It’s about a program in which kids are forced into repression and shame, being told that they are wrong. You ask “who is to say the kid is actually gay?” Apparently, the parents feel that they are. And they’re not listening to all sides of the issue, they’re not hearing what their kid is going through; they have the arrogance to assume that their beliefs are the correct ones for their child and for everyone else. **Nobody** knows all the answers about human sexuality. We can do studies, we can make generalizations, and we can come to conclusions, but it’s nothing but arrogance and chauvinism to assume that it’s the same for everyone. The only thing we can do is work on allowing people to have lives that are satisfying to them romantically, sexually, spiritually, and socially. If that means people having a different belief system than their parents’, fine. If that means a person choosing his faith over his sexual desire, that should also be fine. If it means being gay or ex-gay or ex-ex-gay, that should be fine too, as long as it’s kept to the individual and what makes sense to that individual. What’s not fine is trying to shape a child’s life through force instead of through love and communication. Even if the parents do get the “results” they want to see, it won’t be sincere. And it’s so much fucking torment and argument over something so stupid and trivial as sex. I wish these assholes would just fucking relax and realize that there are so many more important things to be concerned about. > [@brickbacon](#): > > It’s not the fact that they may have a sincere belief in the Bible that makes this a gray area for me. It’s that I don’t have many facts about this situation. Obviously. That’s not stopping you from criticizing and correcting, though. Why don’t you and everybody else just fucking **listen** to the people who are going through this, for a change, instead of just assuming that you know more about their sexuality than they do? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/139 "2005-06-09T23:46:45Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > When have I ever said what would happen to this kid in the future? That is speculation. You are assuming this camp is brainwashing people. What evidence do you have that this is the case. Convincing someone to change their behavior isn’t always brainwashing. I would like to propose that involuntary behavior modification programs, when they are used to modify behavior that is not inherently harmful, _are,_ in fact, _always_ brainwashing. But I’m a bit cautious about making an absolute assertion. With your permission, **brickbacon** , I will task you with coming up with a counterexample. Please make it meet the following criteria: [ul] [li]It is an involuntarily entered program[/li][li]Its purpose is to modify a behavior that is not inherently harmful[/li][li]It is clearly not brainwashing[/li][/ul]I recognize that the criteria I have offered are more stringent than the statement you made in your post. However, as the young man’s case definitively falls under the first two, and you seem to be arguing that it might not be brainwashing, I think it’s fair to ask you to meet all three, using another case. Of course, anyone who wishes to submit one is welcome to do so. My imagination is simply not finding such an example. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2005, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531/140 "2005-06-09T23:52:01Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Almost every situation has some gray area, including this one. My problem with threads like this is that everyone is so quick to demonize the target. I don’t agree with the parents, and I think they are probably homophobic religious nutcases, but I don’t know that. If I agreed with what they were doing, I’d admit it, and take all the criticism (as I have done in other threads). Again, you may use some special language that reserves the word “evil” to the likes of Stalin and Pol Pot, but to the rest of us, these actions are plenty evil, even if more evil acts exist elsewhere. > [@brickbacon](#): > > Fundamental and inherent? Probably, but who knows. Either way, you don’t know whether an individual is actually gay or not. There are plenty of people who are “heterosexual”, but are really gay (and vice-versa). Furthermore, there are plenty of people that would rather be “right with God” then to engage in homosexual behavior. Well, for a start you could ask some of us queers what we think about “fundamental and inherent” - we probably have some insight, no? Besides, the information is out there - you can read up on these sorts of “ministries” as many of us have to find out the information. Is there a word for this sort of logical fallacy, anyone? The notion that “I don’t know it, therefore it’s not known.” Because that’s what you’re doing here, **brickbacon**. Besides, this kid _obviously_ doesn’t prefer to be “right with God” (as his parents interpret the Bible) - so what’s the point of bringing in hypotheticals? I, at least, have said that these programs are fine for misled souls who voluntarily choose them (as adults.) There’s a major difference between that and forcing your 16-year-old kid to take part. > [@brickbacon](#): > > Bullshit! Now you are being condescending. Parents try to change the way their kids act all the time for various reasons. It’s not always altered to suit their own needs. Sure, parents try to control their kids’ behavior. This is an attempt to alter a facet of his personality - and one he doesn’t even have a problem with! Sure, his parents may have some intepretation of the Bible so twisted that they believe torturing their son is the best alternative. Followers of Jim Jones thought that drinking the Kool-Aid was the right action. So what? People think lots of things. That doesn’t make it right. And a kid who’s sixteen - two years away from legal adulthood, mind - has the right to some self-determination. It’s one thing to set a curfew or make your kid do his homework - motivating the child to do what’s right instead of what’s immediately gratifying is part of parenting. It’s another thing to set out to change something fundamental when he’s uninterested in changing. That’s grossly immoral on its own, and the fact that you disagree is immaterial and is really just an illustration of your own scant grasp of morals. > [@brickbacon](#): > > I will bet there are at least a few people who have been converted. I don’t know what evidence to present because most of the stuff has a clear bias. However, that bias doesn’t mean it’s wrong. Find some evidence on the effectiveness of these programs. Find some analysis of them - not from those promoting them - and look at how common it is. Of course no individual case will tell us much, because history shows that a lot of the “converts” change their minds a few years later - just like two of the founders of Exodus, Michael Bussee and Gary Cooper. Others may be folks who were bisexual, or confused, or what-have-you. But if you’re saying that the evil of this program (which, I must admit, is _far_ from the worst of them) of torturing young people is mitigated by the miniscule minority of people who end up “changed” by it, then that’s a bizarre claim. You must acknowledge as well that an unwilling participant is far less likely to succeed. You know - or ought to know - that these programs are _very_ unsuccessful, by and large. You know that this kid has no moral dilemma in regard to his identity, and is being forced into it against his will. You know (if you’ve read his blog) that he’s begun experiencing suicidal ideation as a result of it. You think this is okay because of some imagined chance he might change as a result - _when he doesn’t want to change in the first place?_ What are the chances, do you think, of an unwilling, possibly suicidal teenager changing his sexual identity - one that he’s happy with and well-convinced of - as a result of unwilling participation in an ex-gay program? And even if he did end up “straight” as a result, _why would that make it okay?_ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-in-action-and-victims-of-ex-gay-brainwashing/307531.md?page=8)