That is not neccesarily strictly gay behavior by the way.
What? Trying to shove anal beads up an Ox’s ass? I never said that it was.
I thought that was Neal Horsley…
If that’s a boy ox, yer goin’ straight ta Hell, Binarydrone!
Almost every situation has some gray area, including this one. My problem with threads like this is that everyone is so quick to demonize the target. I don’t agree with the parents, and I think they are probably homophobic religious nutcases, but I don’t know that. If I agreed with what they were doing, I’d admit it, and take all the criticism (as I have done in other threads).
Well, I don’t always think it’s wrong to beat you kids (within reason), but that’s beside the point. It’s not the fact that they may have a sincere belief in the Bible that makes this a gray area for me. It’s that I don’t have many facts about this situation.
Fundamental and inherent? Probably, but who knows. Either way, you don’t know whether an individual is actually gay or not. There are plenty of people who are “heterosexual”, but are really gay (and vice-versa). Furthermore, there are plenty of people that would rather be “right with God” then to engage in homosexual behavior.
Depends on your definition of evil. I reserve that word for only the most heinous acts. This isn’t one of them.
That is funny, but I respectfully disagree.
Bullshit! Now you are being condescending. Parents try to change the way their kids act all the time for various reasons. It’s not always altered to suit their own needs.
I will bet there are at least a few people who have been converted. I don’t know what evidence to present because most of the stuff has a clear bias. However, that bias doesn’t mean it’s wrong.
So let them make that choice on their own, jackass. brickbacon, this kid does not WANT to change, he’s there against his will. That’s not evil? Fuck you.
This kid is not among those people. He wants to be gay. For the life of me, I still can’t figure out how that makes you not “right with God.” But that’s just me. The fact that his parents aren’t okay with it is entirely thier problem. Not his. Sending him off to brainwash camp is forcing him to lie to himself and everyone else about who he is and accept a life he will be miserable in to satisfy them. Essentially: He will be in a living fucking hell so his parents will feel good. Does that make it a bit clearer?
Treating people like things is evil. Destroying someone’s life so you can feel good about yourself is evil. Torturing someone and getting a “religious high” out of it is fucking well evil.
Perhaps, but who is to say the kid is actually gay? Plenty of people think they are of one orientation at one point in their lives, then they realize they are something else. You make a lot of assumptions about human sexuality that simply aren’t supported by the facts. It may not be a on/off thing. If it’s a spectrum from heterosexuality to homosexuality, he could be anywhere along that line. You act as if all these things you say are proven facts.
Also, what if he decided the faith his parents practice is more important to him than being a practicing homosexual. Is that wrong? That said, this camp is a dumb idea to me because I doubt it will work and it’s unnecessary since being gay, IMO, is not wrong. But, the outrage you guys have is based on a lot of assumption on human sexuality that you cannot prove.
He’s a kid, and kids don’t always get to make their own choices. I repeat, this may be stupid, but it’s not evil, OK shitface?
Can you predict the future? You are making a lot of assumptions about what’s gonna happen to this kid.
Again, all speculation.
How is your opinion recorded fact, and mine speculation?
Brainwashing is a form of torture.
When have I ever said what would happen to this kid in the future? That is speculation. You are assuming this camp is brainwashing people. What evidence do you have that this is the case. Convincing someone to change their behavior isn’t always brainwashing.
Tell me, does it matter to you the number of mainstream psychological associations that have stated, based on the research available to them, that conversion therapy is harmful and contraindicated?
From the APA’s site on conversion therapy:
He’s sixteen years old. This is not exactly a child whining that he wants another piece of candy, but a human being nearing adulthood who has at least some idea of consequences and ethicality. He has no desire to be in these camps. His posts make it very clear that he is only attending out of fear of losing parental support. He otherwise seems healthy and reasonably well-balanced for a teenager. Where is the justification for parental intervention? Heck, I’d be pretty mad if parents forced their teenager to attend AA meetings, because it all hinges on whether or not the person involved believes they have a problem. I really do think you’re crossing the line from devil’s advocate to simply irrational.
Convincing someone to change their behaviour is one thing.
Consistently training someone in a controlled and abnormal environment (environment other than that which they are used to) by drastically changing their daily routine and setting up a series of “goals” to reach a certain end (I am not gay) with a set of rewards and punishments for correct and incorrect responses is brainwashing.
Why is it not good enough for the kid to say he’s actually gay?
Yes, I am comparing sending your kid to one of these camps to murder or molesting a kid. That doesn’t imply that they are equal. Murder and molestation are obviously much, much worse. I would put camps like this on par with, say, beating your kid. It’s emotional abuse, not physical, so maybe just a hair better, but I think all these acts are absolutely in the same ballpark, and that ballpark is the ballpark of evil.
Yes, that is precisely the definition of evil under which I am operating.
I don’t excuse immoral behavior because of religion. Religion is a choice. Liberal and FriarTed both practice the same religion. One of them has chosen to interpret their holy book in a way that does not denigrate or discriminate against their fellow humans. One has chose to interpret it in a way that does. I don’t see, in a situation like this, how you can blame the book, and not the person reading it, for the conclusions they draw.
Because “being wrong” does not express the depths of my loathing for the people who run these camps. Saying that I’m demonizing them is an insult to demons everywhere.
No, I’m afraid we can’t.
Your points would have merit if this thread were about a voluntary program for adults who are having issues with their sexuality, their relationships, and their spirituality to find answers to their problems.
But it’s not. It’s about a program in which kids are forced into repression and shame, being told that they are wrong. You ask “who is to say the kid is actually gay?” Apparently, the parents feel that they are. And they’re not listening to all sides of the issue, they’re not hearing what their kid is going through; they have the arrogance to assume that their beliefs are the correct ones for their child and for everyone else.
Nobody knows all the answers about human sexuality. We can do studies, we can make generalizations, and we can come to conclusions, but it’s nothing but arrogance and chauvinism to assume that it’s the same for everyone.
The only thing we can do is work on allowing people to have lives that are satisfying to them romantically, sexually, spiritually, and socially. If that means people having a different belief system than their parents’, fine. If that means a person choosing his faith over his sexual desire, that should also be fine. If it means being gay or ex-gay or ex-ex-gay, that should be fine too, as long as it’s kept to the individual and what makes sense to that individual.
What’s not fine is trying to shape a child’s life through force instead of through love and communication. Even if the parents do get the “results” they want to see, it won’t be sincere.
And it’s so much fucking torment and argument over something so stupid and trivial as sex. I wish these assholes would just fucking relax and realize that there are so many more important things to be concerned about.
Obviously. That’s not stopping you from criticizing and correcting, though. Why don’t you and everybody else just fucking listen to the people who are going through this, for a change, instead of just assuming that you know more about their sexuality than they do?
I would like to propose that involuntary behavior modification programs, when they are used to modify behavior that is not inherently harmful, are, in fact, always brainwashing. But I’m a bit cautious about making an absolute assertion.
With your permission, brickbacon, I will task you with coming up with a counterexample. Please make it meet the following criteria:
[ul]
[li]It is an involuntarily entered program[/li][li]Its purpose is to modify a behavior that is not inherently harmful[/li][li]It is clearly not brainwashing[/li][/ul]I recognize that the criteria I have offered are more stringent than the statement you made in your post. However, as the young man’s case definitively falls under the first two, and you seem to be arguing that it might not be brainwashing, I think it’s fair to ask you to meet all three, using another case.
Of course, anyone who wishes to submit one is welcome to do so. My imagination is simply not finding such an example.
Again, you may use some special language that reserves the word “evil” to the likes of Stalin and Pol Pot, but to the rest of us, these actions are plenty evil, even if more evil acts exist elsewhere.
Well, for a start you could ask some of us queers what we think about “fundamental and inherent” - we probably have some insight, no? Besides, the information is out there - you can read up on these sorts of “ministries” as many of us have to find out the information. Is there a word for this sort of logical fallacy, anyone? The notion that “I don’t know it, therefore it’s not known.” Because that’s what you’re doing here, brickbacon.
Besides, this kid obviously doesn’t prefer to be “right with God” (as his parents interpret the Bible) - so what’s the point of bringing in hypotheticals? I, at least, have said that these programs are fine for misled souls who voluntarily choose them (as adults.) There’s a major difference between that and forcing your 16-year-old kid to take part.
Sure, parents try to control their kids’ behavior. This is an attempt to alter a facet of his personality - and one he doesn’t even have a problem with! Sure, his parents may have some intepretation of the Bible so twisted that they believe torturing their son is the best alternative. Followers of Jim Jones thought that drinking the Kool-Aid was the right action. So what? People think lots of things. That doesn’t make it right. And a kid who’s sixteen - two years away from legal adulthood, mind - has the right to some self-determination. It’s one thing to set a curfew or make your kid do his homework - motivating the child to do what’s right instead of what’s immediately gratifying is part of parenting. It’s another thing to set out to change something fundamental when he’s uninterested in changing. That’s grossly immoral on its own, and the fact that you disagree is immaterial and is really just an illustration of your own scant grasp of morals.
Find some evidence on the effectiveness of these programs. Find some analysis of them - not from those promoting them - and look at how common it is. Of course no individual case will tell us much, because history shows that a lot of the “converts” change their minds a few years later - just like two of the founders of Exodus, Michael Bussee and Gary Cooper. Others may be folks who were bisexual, or confused, or what-have-you. But if you’re saying that the evil of this program (which, I must admit, is far from the worst of them) of torturing young people is mitigated by the miniscule minority of people who end up “changed” by it, then that’s a bizarre claim.
You must acknowledge as well that an unwilling participant is far less likely to succeed. You know - or ought to know - that these programs are very unsuccessful, by and large. You know that this kid has no moral dilemma in regard to his identity, and is being forced into it against his will. You know (if you’ve read his blog) that he’s begun experiencing suicidal ideation as a result of it. You think this is okay because of some imagined chance he might change as a result - when he doesn’t want to change in the first place? What are the chances, do you think, of an unwilling, possibly suicidal teenager changing his sexual identity - one that he’s happy with and well-convinced of - as a result of unwilling participation in an ex-gay program? And even if he did end up “straight” as a result, why would that make it okay?