# Love the Christian, hate Christianity **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 7, 2000, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-the-christian-hate-christianity/44486 "2000-12-07T15:59:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Hoopy\_Frood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hoopy_frood/32/8452_2.png) [@Hoopy\_Frood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoopy_Frood)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2002, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-the-christian-hate-christianity/44486/301 "2002-04-30T16:10:18Z")
So I just read through this whole thread for the first time (reached it through a cross-link or two), and although its over two years old, there were some points I figured I’d throw in that in themselves are over two years old as well (and were suprisingly not mentioned, since one involves the California legislation and the other involves the Methodist Church). I’m also interested in finding out (since most of the posters in this thread are still around), if people feel anything has changed with the overall situation of Christianity and its overall view towards gays. I apologize if anyone feels this thread has already beaten the proverbial deceased horse and doesn’t want to discuss the matter any further, but then just ignore it and it will be submerged into the archives of obscurity within short time anyway. So without further ado… > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Freyr \* > \*\*This point here goes to the heart of my arguement. It’s simply **NOT** the fundamentalist elements that are advocating this policy. It’s the **OFFICIAL** policy of almost every Christian church that homosexuality is wrong. The Roman Catholic, the Orthodox, the LDS, the Southern Baptist, etc believe homosexuality is wrong. > > This, in and of itself is no problem for me, since I’m not Christian, I’m not bound by Christian rules. What does really raise my ire is when those organizations use their political and financial strength to affect secular law. The recent passage of the referendum that outlaws same-sex marriage in California is a good example. Two major proponets to the referendum were the LDS and Catholic church.\*\* Your last two sentences leave out the whole picture and ,as a result, add unfair bias to your argument. While what you say is essentially true, you have made a statement that falls under the umbrella of the third kind of lie (the first being lies; the second being damned lies). I doubt you did this intentionally, most likely you were unaware of or forgot about the religious groups in California that were opposed to the referendum, since they probably received considerably less press. (Which actually brings me to a side question, no doubt the gay population was incensed at the actions of the LDS and Catholics, but did any of them actively publicize the groups that did support them in this? Gays share some responsibility in publicizing the religious groups that do support them, if they want other religious groups to realize that antigay positions have less support than many people would like to believe. In case you’re wondering, the Jews, Episcopalians, Lutherans and Methodists all opposed the referendum officially. Then there’s the case of Californians Jeanne Barnett and Ellie Charlton. 67 Methodist pastors officially blessed this lesbian union. The regional conference for Nevada and California decided not to punish the clergy. Then there’s the case of Reverand Gregory Dell of the Broadway United Methodist Church in Chicago, Illinois. This case is of particular interest to myself, because the Methodist church I belong to supported Dell. I grew up a relatively liberal Baptist home (liberal for Baptists). I converted to Methodism mainly because of my Fiancee at the time (now wife), who was Methodist. (In my opinion, there are just as many differences within protestant denominations from church to church, as there are between the denominations themselves. I believe that the community of the church is more important than the actual denomination, so converting to Methodism wasn’t that big of a deal for me.) My now mother-in-law is assistant pastor at the church, which is located in Evanston, and my father-in-law is a professor at the Methodist seminary, so conversion was pretty easy. (I really could care less about the liturgical aspect of Methodism, I converted due to family, community, and politics.) Since moving out to Hoffman Estates, in late 2000, my wife and I stopped attending the church due to distance, but our membership is still active there. Dell has been in the news for a while now (and still pops up occasionally even today). In a story that made national news (and even got old Freddy Phelps pants in such a wad that he brought his group up to Chicago to picket Broadway), on Sept. 19, 1998, Dell performed a gay union ceremony for Keith Eccarius and Karl Reinhardt, two members of his Church. Dell was found guilty of Disobedience by the Methodist church and was suspended on July 3, 1999. Our church regularly sent a handful of parishoners in the spring of 1999 to the Sunday services of Broadway, as a sign of support. The suspension was originally to last until either Dell signed a statement confirming that he would adhere to the church law which forbade performance of the gay union ceremonies, or the law itself was overturned. The suspension was eventually changed to only one year. In January of 2001, Broadway took a vote to determine what their future would be. They would either leave the denomination entirely, join with the UCC (United Church of Christ), openly defy the United Methodist Church, or remain members of the Methodist Church, but work within it to change its policies. The final decision was the last one (by a margin of one vote), the other favored option was joining the UCC. Dell still continues to perform gay unions and has discovered a loophole in the law that allows him to do so without actually violating the Methodist law. This at least keeps the heat off of him while people work to overturn it. ---
**Author:** ![Hoopy\_Frood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hoopy_frood/32/8452_2.png) [@Hoopy\_Frood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoopy_Frood)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2002, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-the-christian-hate-christianity/44486/302 "2002-04-30T16:13:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > **My sister told me today that her 8th grade teacher told her that the pill was the same as an abortion. Same with condoms…ooookay.** Well, the way I understand it, the pill prevents the egg from adhering to the uterine wall, it doesn’t actually prevent conception. As a result, one could argue that using the pill is a form of abortion. Although condoms??? That teacher’s completely whacked. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2002, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-the-christian-hate-christianity/44486/303 "2002-04-30T17:41:43Z")
Oh dear, my stereotype battle with **Jodi** resurfaces. Why, god, why??!!!? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2002, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-the-christian-hate-christianity/44486/304 "2002-04-30T17:47:12Z")
It’s Eastertide, **erislover** , when threads about Christianity are subject to Resurrection! 😃 But there was some worthwhile stuff said in this one, and I’m glad it’s back. ---
**Author:** ![Phoenix\_Dragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Phoenix\_Dragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phoenix_Dragon)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2002, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-the-christian-hate-christianity/44486/305 "2002-04-30T17:53:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hoopy Frood \* > \*\*Although condoms??? That teacher’s completely whacked. \*\* First thing that ran through my mind: _Every sperm is sacred…_ And now I’ve got that damn song stuck in my head. Thanks a lot… 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Hoopy\_Frood](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hoopy_frood/32/8452_2.png) [@Hoopy\_Frood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hoopy_Frood)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2002, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-the-christian-hate-christianity/44486/306 "2002-04-30T18:44:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Phoenix Dragon \* > \*\* > > First thing that ran through my mind: _Every sperm is sacred…_ > > And now I’ve got that damn song stuck in my head. Thanks a lot… 🙂 \*\* Heh, heh. Harry Blackitt would be so proud. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![shoeman83](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d2c977/32.png) [@shoeman83](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shoeman83)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2002, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-the-christian-hate-christianity/44486/307 "2002-05-07T13:53:31Z")
Esprix: Well to start off I first want to clear up the general use of the word “Christian.” I am a Christian, one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God and died for my sins. I am amazed at all the people I see day in day out that call themselves christians and I dislike it also. If love the sinner, hate the sin was actually put into practice it would be a great thing, but what I see is a hypocritical life with the idea that “I am better than you” philosophy. Please understand that the term Christian was given to early believers who called themselves followers of the Way. When others saw them they said that these people reminded them of Jesus Christ, and therefore called them Christians. I have to admit that I am sometimes offended by other christians and it makes me sick. Being that I am a Christian I do believe that homosexuality is a sin, but no more than any of my sins that occur every day. The sad thing is when a specific sin is put on a pedestal and said to be the worst. I think that if Christ were around today walking next to us you would have a different view. Well any ways getting back to your question. So, if Christianity, as a religion, preaches, “love the sinner, hate the sin,” is it valid for me to have the opinion, “love the Christian, hate Christianity?” My answer is yes. You have every right to have that view. But please understand that Christianity isn’t limited to the hypocrites that you have your beef with, in fact, that’s anything but Christianity. Shoeman83 ---
**Author:** ![Esprix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprix/32/7899_2.png) [@Esprix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprix)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2002, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-the-christian-hate-christianity/44486/308 "2002-05-07T15:47:45Z")
:eek: Who the fuck revived this dinosaur!!! There oughta be a law… :mad: And **shoeman** , it is customary to actually _read_ a thread before posting to it. My views regarding the OP have changed, as you would have seen on page 6. Esprix ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2002, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-the-christian-hate-christianity/44486/309 "2002-05-07T15:48:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by shoeman83 \* > \*\*Being that I am a Christian I do believe that homosexuality is a sin, \*\* I fail to see your logic. Christ, as I recall, never said anything about homosexuals. ---
**Author:** ![shoeman83](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d2c977/32.png) [@shoeman83](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shoeman83)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2002, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-the-christian-hate-christianity/44486/310 "2002-05-07T16:25:50Z")
KellyM You argure that because Jesus did not specifically condemn homosexuality, the case against it is less conclusive. But there are many sexual behaviors that Jesus did not address specifically, such as incest, bestiality, and rape. That doesn’t mean they were permissible. Jesus up held the Old Testament law. Furthermore, he indicated that the only alternative to heterosexual marriage was celibacy (Matt. 19:10). Andy ---
**Author:** ![shoeman83](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d2c977/32.png) [@shoeman83](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shoeman83)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2002, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-the-christian-hate-christianity/44486/311 "2002-05-07T16:29:29Z")
Esprix. I appologize that I didn’t read all your posts. Sheoman83 ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2002, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-the-christian-hate-christianity/44486/312 "2002-05-07T18:01:22Z")
**Shoeman** , please join us over in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=113688) which is discussing just the issue you raised. You might also be interested in the three Christianity and Love threads, dating from about two years ago, which focused on the precise issue you’re addressing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-the-christian-hate-christianity/44486.md?page=15)