# love the sinner...= separate but equal **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 6, 2003, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-the-sinner-separate-but-equal/159436 "2003-03-06T05:34:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2003, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-the-sinner-separate-but-equal/159436/1 "2003-03-06T05:34:25Z")
It’s my newest pat analogy. Sounds good on paper, doesn’t really work out in real life. ---
**Author:** ![Cessandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cessandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cessandra)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2003, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-the-sinner-separate-but-equal/159436/2 "2003-03-06T05:40:09Z")
It can. I assume you are talking about homosexuality? I don’t know yet if I believe it, but my church is one of the ones that teaches homosexuality is a sin. They also teach that speeding is a sin. And that all sins are equal in the eyes of God. And that we all sin, no escaping it. Put it into that perspective and it’s easy to put sin on one level where you can hate it, and the sinner on another level where they are simply a human being and it’s not my place to even concern myself with judging them. ---
**Author:** ![Cessandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@Cessandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cessandra)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2003, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-the-sinner-separate-but-equal/159436/3 "2003-03-06T05:41:35Z")
Er, wait, on second thought I’m not sure if I correctly understood what you meant. So if what I said made no sense, forgive me. ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2003, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-the-sinner-separate-but-equal/159436/4 "2003-03-06T05:49:25Z")
Nah, you knew what I was talking about. Though I never knew speeding was a “sin”. ---
**Author:** ![MrVisible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@MrVisible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrVisible)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2003, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-the-sinner-separate-but-equal/159436/5 "2003-03-06T05:55:20Z")
Hey, if **Cessandra** ’s church can do it, I’m all for it. So, can my boyfriend and I schedule our wedding there, say around October? ( **Pizzabrat** , I’ve never seen a case where your analogy doesn’t hold true. The saying has come to be a flimsy mask for rank discrimination, and a way for bigotry to justify itself. It makes intolerance more palatable to people who would otherwise realize that they’re involved in the oppression of an entire class of people, for ridiculous reasons.) But if gay people are truly treated as equals in **Cessandra** ’s church, then I am impressed with their ability to hold themselves to a very high moral code indeed. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2003, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-the-sinner-separate-but-equal/159436/6 "2003-03-06T13:49:37Z")
If it was truly a hate the sin/love the sinner situation, and all sins were equal, I don’t think they’d even mention homosexuality as a sin. Any more than they would mention speeding is a sin. It just wouldn’t come up. Somehow, it always does. I call “bullshit.” ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2003, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-the-sinner-separate-but-equal/159436/7 "2003-03-06T15:19:40Z")
What kind of church Is that, **Cessandra**? ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2003, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-the-sinner-separate-but-equal/159436/8 "2003-03-06T15:37:18Z")
To clarify my earlier statement, it’s obvious to me that the church doesn’t define the “sin” of homosexuality the same way it does the “sin” of cheating on your taxes a little. You never see people in the church ranting and spewing about the “godless tax evaders” or the IRS men who are going to burn in eternal hell fire. It’s always with the “devilish gays” and the “evil lesbians”. The discussion always revolves around who the godless are sleeping with. If it wasn’t considered worse than just about any other “sin”, it wouldn’t constantly be the topic of conversation in church. And on message boards. And in religious rallies. And anywhere else you get a christian and a soap box within 10 feet of each other. ---
**Author:** ![StGermain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stgermain/32/2868_2.png) [@StGermain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StGermain)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2003, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-the-sinner-separate-but-equal/159436/9 "2003-03-06T16:58:24Z")
What about looking at it this way: My church (I’m Catholic) looks at all sex outside the bounds of marriage as sinful. It also says that non-reproductive sex is sinful (not that conception has to take place, just that it has to be possible), which leaves out oral sex, anal sex and sex while on birth control. However, it doesn’t say that gays or lesbians are “evil”, just as it doesn’t say that people using birth control are “devilish”. In fact, the president of our parish council a few years back is openly gay, living with the head of the Diocesan monthly newspaper. I’ve had pastors that were gay (not in the biblical sense, of course). That isn’t be a problem either, providing they keep to their vows of chastity. Generally, if they talk about gays at all, it is to tell people that the church doesn’t accept disenfranchising someone because of their sexual orientation. Even the pope said it this way: “Homosexuals are our sons and daughters, our brothers and sisters.” StG ---
**Author:** ![Super\_Gnat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Super\_Gnat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Super_Gnat)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2003, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-the-sinner-separate-but-equal/159436/10 "2003-03-06T17:07:24Z")
Why can’t I love a sinner and hate the sin? Am I obligated to fully embrace every aspect of every person? I hate smoking, does that mean I hate smokers? ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2003, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-the-sinner-separate-but-equal/159436/11 "2003-03-06T17:53:48Z")
## St. Germain said, "Generally, if they talk about gays at all, it is to tell people that the church doesn’t accept disenfranchising someone because of their sexual orientation. Even the pope said it this way: “Homosexuals are our sons and daughters, our brothers and sisters.” But it doesn’t allow homosexuals to express love or sexuality without landing themselves in the “Sinners” column. Not fair, and very disenfranchising. It sounds like your church may not be as bad as some, but it still treats homosexuals as second-class citizens with no possible way to change that status. Not very loving. ---
**Author:** ![Crowbar\_of\_Irony\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f08c70/32.png) [@Crowbar\_of\_Irony\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crowbar_of_Irony_3)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2003, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-the-sinner-separate-but-equal/159436/12 "2003-03-06T17:56:01Z")
There’s a difference between acceptance and approval… ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2003, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-the-sinner-separate-but-equal/159436/13 "2003-03-06T19:00:51Z")
Either way, the gays are S.O.L. ---
**Author:** ![SlowMindThinking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@SlowMindThinking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlowMindThinking)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2003, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-the-sinner-separate-but-equal/159436/14 "2003-03-06T19:36:25Z")
I’m a Presbyterian. I’ve never heard one sermon denouncing gays, and a few supporting various aspects of gay life. Yes MrVisible, in a sense, you could get married there. The law would not recognize the ceremony, so you wouldn’t really be married. Also, it is up to the particular minisiter involved. Frankly, your blatantly prejudicial antiChristianity would almost certainly prevent it. Believe it or not, people “living in sin” attend church all the time. Christianity isn’t for “perfect, sinless” people. It is for everyone else. That’s why Jesus hung around with whores. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2003, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-the-sinner-separate-but-equal/159436/15 "2003-03-06T19:55:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by StGermain \* > \*\*What about looking at it this way: My church (I’m Catholic) looks at all sex outside the bounds of marriage as sinful. It also says that non-reproductive sex is sinful (not that conception has to take place, just that it has to be possible), which leaves out oral sex, anal sex and sex while on birth control. However, it doesn’t say that gays or lesbians are “evil”, just as it doesn’t say that people using birth control are “devilish”. In fact, the president of our parish council a few years back is openly gay, living with the head of the Diocesan monthly newspaper. I’ve had pastors that were gay (not in the biblical sense, of course). That isn’t be a problem either, providing they keep to their vows of chastity. Generally, if they talk about gays at all, it is to tell people that the church doesn’t accept disenfranchising someone because of their sexual orientation. Even the pope said it this way: “Homosexuals are our sons and daughters, our brothers and sisters.” > > StG \*\* The Pope also says that all homosexuals are “objectively disordered” and unfit to serve as priests, nuns or lay church leaders. The Pope also recently decided that transgendered people don’t really change their sex and are likewise unfit for holy orders. The Pope, through his agent the Catholic Church, has been at the forefront of the effort to maintain a religious definition of the civil institution of marriage. The Pope, like every other religious bigot, talks a good game but when it comes right down to it engages in the same rhetoric of “love the sinner, hate the sin” and adds to it “punish the sinner whether he commits the ‘sin’ or not.” ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2003, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-the-sinner-separate-but-equal/159436/16 "2003-03-06T20:32:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SlowMindThinking \* > \*\*I’m a Presbyterian. I’ve never heard one sermon denouncing gays, and a few supporting various aspects of gay life. Yes MrVisible, in a sense, you could get married there. The law would not recognize the ceremony, so you wouldn’t really be married. \*\* Just because the law does not recognize a marriage, it in no way stops the marriage from being valid and real. ---
**Author:** ![MrVisible](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@MrVisible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrVisible)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2003, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-the-sinner-separate-but-equal/159436/17 "2003-03-06T20:37:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SlowMindThinking \* > I’m a Presbyterian. I’ve never heard one sermon denouncing gays, and a few supporting various aspects of gay life. Yes MrVisible, in a sense, you could get married there. The law would not recognize the ceremony, so you wouldn’t really be married. Also, it is up to the particular minisiter involved. Frankly, your blatantly prejudicial antiChristianity would almost certainly prevent it. I’m interested to hear what evidence you can turn up that I’m anti-Christian. If it’s that blatant, it should be easy to find. ---
**Author:** ![SlowMindThinking](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@SlowMindThinking](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlowMindThinking)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2003, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-the-sinner-separate-but-equal/159436/18 "2003-03-06T22:40:08Z")
> [@](#): > > (Pizzabrat, I’ve never seen a case where your analogy doesn’t hold true. The saying has come to be a flimsy mask for rank discrimination, and a way for bigotry to justify itself. It makes intolerance more palatable to people who would otherwise realize that they’re involved in the oppression of an entire class of people, for ridiculous reasons.) ---
**Author:** ![kevja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/aeb1de/32.png) [@kevja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kevja)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2003, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-the-sinner-separate-but-equal/159436/19 "2003-03-06T23:02:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kalhoun \* > \*\*Either way, the gays are S.O.L. \*\* Oh yeah, and I’m really worried if they hate me or my sin. Hate is hate. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2003, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-the-sinner-separate-but-equal/159436/20 "2003-03-06T23:23:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kevja \* > \*\*Oh yeah, and I’m really worried if they hate me or my sin. Hate is hate. \*\* Well, there **is** a difference between “I hate you” and “I hate a particular thing you do”, but when the “particular thing you do” is such an integral part of “you” as with homosexuality, any real separation is pretty hard to see even where it exists. Under such a separation the only way to be completely “acceptable” is to eschew sex altogether, which is not something I would be willing to ask of anyone. So in that regard there ain’t no “equal” about it, separate or no. But then the only church I attended with any regularity (UCC) tended not to dwell on that sort of thing, preferring to deal with the more widespread “don’t be a jerk to your fellow humans” admonishment than with other, more specific transgressions. In fact, I can’t remember anyone ever mentioning sex at all from the pulpit. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/love-the-sinner-separate-but-equal/159436.md?page=2)