# Low-income housing projects in the 'burbs? Why not? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 16, 2020, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/low-income-housing-projects-in-the-burbs-why-not/920799 "2020-09-16T23:12:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2020, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/low-income-housing-projects-in-the-burbs-why-not/920799/41 "2020-09-18T20:02:35Z")
> [@SmartAleq](#): > > Another thing that disturbs me about the fight for low income housing is that it’s always assumed it will be skanky apartment complexes AND that it will inevitably be rental property. Rentals are just another way to siphon money upwards–the poor renters only get a roof but the landlord gets rich. The apartment buildings I mentioned upthread are overseen by a non-profit organization. The only one getting rich would be the county, via property taxes. If the rentals are also subsidized (e.g.: Section 8), the organization that handles the subsidy should have their own housing inspectors to ensure everything is on the up & up. I had a Section 8 apartment and got out of the program earlier than I normally would have because I got tired of having to take two days off every year, one for the inspection and one for the second inspection after the first invariably failed. My income was closing in on the upper limit for Section 8 here so I would have eventually stopped qualifying. ---
**Author:** ![razordance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e47774/32.png) [@razordance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/razordance)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2020, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/low-income-housing-projects-in-the-burbs-why-not/920799/42 "2020-09-18T22:46:24Z")
What you wanted is irrelevant. No decision you make in the real-estate marketplace gives you any claim to freeze anything around the property in place as it was at the time of purchase. ---
**Author:** ![ZosterSandstorm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e0b2c6/32.png) [@ZosterSandstorm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZosterSandstorm)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2020, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/low-income-housing-projects-in-the-burbs-why-not/920799/43 "2020-09-18T23:06:57Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > The OP mentions placing low-income housing projects in the suburbs, which is why I thought it necessary to mention that the suburbs where I grew up are unsuitable for high-density housing and the lack of public transit makes them unsuitable for any who don’t own cars. Essentially every American household outside of the 2 or 3 urban areas with reliable public transit owns a car. In my city there’s plenty of cars parked around the public housing projects. You have to adjust your expectations of what “low-income” means from the leftist stereotype of urchins dying of neglect to the actual reality. A “poor” person in the US. lives in a multi-room home with a functional kitchen and bathroom, has ten or more appliances that weren’t available to the wealthiest person in the world in 1930, has food in the cabinets and has probably never had to involuntarily skip a meal in his or her life, owns a car, has a legal entitlement to free health care, receives subsidized child care if they need it to work a job, and has a justified expectation that they can go through an average day without being subject to violent crime. We’re not talking about Indian street children here, we’re talking about people whose basic needs are already met by the trillions of dollars of federal and state dollars devoted to poverty relief programs and enjoy a standard of living higher than the median person in most historical societies. There are only “poor” people in America relative to other contemporary Americans - in a global or historical sense there are none. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2020, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/low-income-housing-projects-in-the-burbs-why-not/920799/44 "2020-09-18T23:31:55Z")
Indeed you have that right, it’s called zoning. Unless you want a trash dump or toxic waste disposal plant next to your house? ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2020, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/low-income-housing-projects-in-the-burbs-why-not/920799/45 "2020-09-18T23:37:45Z")
> [@ZosterSandstorm](#): > > Essentially every American household outside of the 2 or 3 urban areas with reliable public transit owns a car. Like the raging metropolis of Springfield, MA, where 20% of households don’t own a vehicle. Is that number two or number three? I haven’t personally surveyed the housing projects there, but I’m glad you have. > **[Vehicle Ownership in U.S. Cities Data and Map](https://www.governing.com/archive/car-ownership-numbers-of-vehicles-by-city-map.html)** > > Statistics on car-free households and numbers of vehicles per household for cities. Data are hard ---
**Author:** ![ZosterSandstorm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e0b2c6/32.png) [@ZosterSandstorm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZosterSandstorm)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2020, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/low-income-housing-projects-in-the-burbs-why-not/920799/46 "2020-09-18T23:48:25Z")
Your own link literally says only 8% of households don’t own a car. It maps very well onto “people with access to the NYC, DC, or Chicago transit systems who could go out right now and buy the same $500 1998 Ford Taurus that the poorest people get by with if they wanted to but don’t see any need for it.” Yes, if you cherry pick the biggest outliers to come up with unrepresentative numbers like 20%, data are hard. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2020, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/low-income-housing-projects-in-the-burbs-why-not/920799/47 "2020-09-19T12:32:47Z")
> [@ZosterSandstorm](#): > > Yes, if you cherry pick the biggest outliers to come up with unrepresentative numbers like 20%, data are hard. There are more than twenty jurisdictions above Springfield on that list. And over forty with more than 15% without cars. That’s not cherry picking. 8% of households is over 10 million. This information is not hard to find: Brown, A. E. (2017). Car-less or car-free?Socioeconomic and mobility differences among zero-car households. Transport Policy, 60, 152–159. [Redirecting](http://doi.org/10.1016/j.tranpol.2017.09.016) Klein, N. J., & Smart, M. J. (2017). Car today, gone tomorrow: The ephemeral car in low-income, immigrant and minority families. Transportation, 44(3), 495–510. [Car today, gone tomorrow: The ephemeral car in low-income, immigrant and minority families | Transportation](http://doi.org/10.1007/s11116-015-9664-4) So no: > [@ZosterSandstorm](#): > > Essentially every American household outside of the 2 or 3 urban areas with reliable public transit owns a car. is incorrect. And backing it up with a personal annecdote is worse than useless. ---
**Author:** ![ZosterSandstorm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e0b2c6/32.png) [@ZosterSandstorm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZosterSandstorm)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2020, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/low-income-housing-projects-in-the-burbs-why-not/920799/48 "2020-09-19T12:38:05Z")
It’s backed up with the link you provided that says 92% of households own a car. That is “essentially every.” Poor people CAN own cars because you can buy a basic used car for very little money, and poor people DO own cars because of the link that you provided that says essentially everyone owns a car. The original context of the question was whether “poor people not owning cars” is the reason that “low-income housing projects” are putatively not placed in “the burbs,” and I mentioned the fact, verified by the link you provided, that poor people do in fact own cars, to show that this is not the reason. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2020, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/low-income-housing-projects-in-the-burbs-why-not/920799/49 "2020-09-19T14:08:22Z")
> [@ZosterSandstorm](#): > > “poor people not owning cars” You put this in quotation marks, but nobody wrote that. Your first post to this thread was in response to this: > [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > the lack of public transit makes them unsuitable for any who don’t own cars. This does not mean that poor people do not own cars, because yes, many poor people own cars. Nobody wrote otherwise. You counter absolutely nothing by pointing out that the project near you has cars parked nearby. You (would) counter absolutely nothing by pointing out that the majority of poor people have cars, had you bothered to actually look that up. It is true that some areas are unsuitable for people without cars. It is also true that poor people are far more likely to live in a car-less household than others. And that is something to consider when siting housing specifically for poor people, because that increases the likelihood of people not having any reliable means of transportation. ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2020, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/low-income-housing-projects-in-the-burbs-why-not/920799/50 "2020-09-19T17:50:22Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Indeed you have that right, it’s called zoning. Unless you want a trash dump or toxic waste disposal plant next to your house? If you do want that, move to Texas. ---
**Author:** ![Acerbic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acerbic/32/3695_2.png) [@Acerbic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acerbic)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2020, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/low-income-housing-projects-in-the-burbs-why-not/920799/51 "2020-09-19T18:23:46Z")
> [@SmartAleq](#): > > If you do want that, move to Texas. Houston maybe. That dog don’t hunt in Plano, Richardson, or Garland. ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2020, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/low-income-housing-projects-in-the-burbs-why-not/920799/52 "2020-09-19T18:32:21Z")
What town was that where they had a fertilizer plant that exploded and took out hospitals, schools and nursing homes that were a couple blocks away? Tried to google it but ended up with multiple results dating back years of chemical and fertilizer plants in Texas towns exploding and taking out hospitals, schools and nursing homes that were a couple blocks away. You can understand my confusion, I’m sure. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2020, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/low-income-housing-projects-in-the-burbs-why-not/920799/53 "2020-09-19T18:35:56Z")
> [@SmartAleq](#): > > What town was that where they had a fertilizer plant that exploded and took out hospitals, schools and nursing homes that were a couple blocks away? I suspect you’re thinking of the explosion in West, Texas in 2013. Note that, according to the Wikipedia article, “…the damaged buildings included the public [West Middle School](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Middle_School_(West,_Texas)), which sits next to the facility.[[28]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Fertilizer_Company_explosion#cite_note-nbc-news-28) A neighboring 50-unit, two-story apartment building was destroyed.[[6]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Fertilizer_Company_explosion#cite_note-chicagotribune1-6)” > **[West Fertilizer Company explosion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Fertilizer_Company_explosion)** > > On April 17, 2013, an ammonium nitrate explosion occurred at the West Fertilizer Company storage and distribution facility in West, Texas, United States (18 miles (29 km) north of Waco), while emergency services personnel were responding to a fire at the facility. Fifteen people were killed, more than 160 were injured, and more than 150 buildings were damaged or destroyed. Investigators confirmed that ammonium nitrate was the material that exploded. On May 11, 2016, the Bureau of Alcohol, T Wes... ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2020, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/low-income-housing-projects-in-the-burbs-why-not/920799/54 "2020-09-19T19:32:45Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Indeed you have that right, it’s called zoning. Unless you want a trash dump or toxic waste disposal plant next to your house? I’ve been to some zoning meetings. And getting variances for zoning is pretty easy, if you have some pockets to reach into. If your pockets are deeper than those of the area you want to change the zoning rules for, you generally get it. That’s why those trash dumps and toxic waste disposal plants often end up next to low income areas. > **[Targeting minority, low-income neighborhoods for hazardous waste sites](https://news.umich.edu/targeting-minority-low-income-neighborhoods-for-hazardous-waste-sites/)** > > Minority and low-income neighborhoods and communities in transition are disproportionately targeted by industries that follow the path of least resistance when deciding where to locate hazardous waste sites and other polluting facilities. > **[Waste Report: New York’s Poorer neighborhoods are getting dumped on - New...](https://www.nylpi.org/waste-report-new-yorks-poorer-neighborhoods-are-getting-dumped-on/)** > > New York City is undermining its major investments in solid waste and recycling infrastructure by allowing the private commercial waste industry to massively increase its reliance on trucking of commercial \[…\] ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2020, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/low-income-housing-projects-in-the-burbs-why-not/920799/55 "2020-09-24T18:51:33Z")
And FWIW, West is a pretty small town of less than 3000 people, but one of the larger ones in its immediate area, so having a fertilizer storage and distribution company on the far north side of town near the railroad tracks is probably not unusual for similar rural towns throughout the US. And in Texas City, it was ships being loaded with ammonium nitrate for export that blew up in the harbor. Nothing to do with zoning there. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2020, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/low-income-housing-projects-in-the-burbs-why-not/920799/56 "2020-09-24T19:39:15Z")
> The placement of low-income housing projects in the suburbs does NOT mean the destruction of the suburbs. What causes the destruction of any place is people fleeing those places. People flee areas with housing projects for a mixture of rational and irrational reasons. The last hold-outs, the ones who aren’t bothered by the projects, see everyone else is packing their bags and eventually decide to flee as well. Because no one wants to live next to an abandoned property. Even if you don’t care about recouping your financial investment, living in a ghost town is no fun. Amazon Prime’s got a documentary called Spanish Lake about this very subject. Spanish Lake is a small rural town that was made into a dumping ground for low-income housing developments during the 197s and 1980s. I was prepared to be very uncomfortable going in because I knew there was going to be some racism exposed. However, I came away with some sympathy and understanding for the original Spanish Lake residents. Yes, some of those people were and are racist. But the county clearly did not care what it was doing, and corporate vultures (I mean realtors) were more than happen to capitalize off the problems, making things worse for everyone. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2020, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/low-income-housing-projects-in-the-burbs-why-not/920799/57 "2020-09-24T20:18:30Z")
And let’s not forget that homeowners frequently worry about the number of renters in their neighborhood. I took care of the last home home I rented making sure the lawn was mowed, the property was cleaned up, and informing the landlord when there were any problems. But the realty company who managed the property wasn’t really interested in properly maintaining it and the curb appeal was pretty much gone. There were a lot of rentals in the area, and you could usually tell the difference between a home being rented and one the owner lived in. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2020, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/low-income-housing-projects-in-the-burbs-why-not/920799/58 "2020-10-06T02:22:53Z")
FWIW, in the UK, there tend to be low-income areas mixed in with high-income areas. That doesn’t just apply to inner cities, but to the outer boroughs and suburbs, and towns both in the inner part of the town and the outlying areas. There are council houses in beautiful rural areas, too. It has its upsides and downsides which go beyond this thread, but I’ve never seen anything saying it leads to more crime. It’d be difficult to find a cite for that because we’ve done it for so long, so it’s not a major change. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Kearsen1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen1)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2020, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/low-income-housing-projects-in-the-burbs-why-not/920799/59 "2020-10-06T11:46:16Z")
It likely wouldn’t bring down the taxable value (as that is based upon comparable homes not necessarily in the same area) but it sure would bring down actual value. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2020, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/low-income-housing-projects-in-the-burbs-why-not/920799/60 "2020-10-14T18:13:44Z")
> [@razordance](#): > > Suppose you’re a suburbanite living in a nice, clean, safe neighborhood – not necessarily an all-white neighborhood, but all your nonwhite neighbors have been assimilated to a middle-class American culture with white roots, so you’re not afraid of them. > > Now, suddenly, going up next door is a low-income housing project to be inhabited by exactly the kind of people you have been taught all your life to fear and avoid – inner-city poor blacks! > > But, consider: Your friendly local police know where that project is. They probably keep a list of every resident. If anything happens, that’s the first place they’ll look for suspects. The project’s presence probably won’t affect the local crime rate perceptibly – in the city a kid can snatch a purse and vanish into the crowd, but that can’t happen where you live. > > And their kids will go to school with yours – and be assimilated to middle-class American culture. Now, there is also the possibility that their presence will turn your kids into “whiggers,” but that is a mostly harmless phase. You will have to endure the ridiculous spectacle of your kids cultivating dreadlocks and wearing pants that hang on their thighs – but not, say, robbing liquor stores for drug money. Or drugstores for liquor money. > > The placement of low-income housing projects in the suburbs does NOT mean the destruction of the suburbs. > > It does, in some ways, mean the transformation of the suburbs. None of what you described sounds appealing. You’ve painted a picture of a nice, safe, clean suburban town being invaded by a government subsidized development that requires constant police monitoring and introduces a disruptive cultural element. Of course, in reality, there are all kinds of “low income” housing projects. Most people think of the 1970s style 30 story NYC tenement building for warehousing crackheads and gang bangers. Much like the urban freeway, I think those are largely a product of a bygone era or urban planning. Most of the low income housing I’ve seen in the suburbs are actually fairly decent condo developments. They aren’t just targeted towards “inner-city poor blacks” either. There are plenty of single people, recent college grads in their first job, or people who just don’t want to own and maintain a suburban home who might benefit from such complexes. That said, I’m not sure there is a lot of incentive to build such housing in most suburbs. Low-income means lower tax base. And of course, the more exclusive suburbs tend to like to maintain their exclusivity. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/low-income-housing-projects-in-the-burbs-why-not/920799.md?page=2)