# Low intelligence and retardation in great artists, poets, philosophers, etc. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 7, 2014, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/low-intelligence-and-retardation-in-great-artists-poets-philosophers-etc/692567 "2014-07-07T19:45:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![gracefulfatsheba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a3d4f5/32.png) [@gracefulfatsheba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gracefulfatsheba)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2014, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/low-intelligence-and-retardation-in-great-artists-poets-philosophers-etc/692567/1 "2014-07-07T19:45:10Z")
Have there ever been any great artists, poets, philosophers, etc. that are known (or guessed) to have had low intelligence, if not outright retardation? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Nylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/77aa72/32.png) [@Mr.Nylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Nylock)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2014, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/low-intelligence-and-retardation-in-great-artists-poets-philosophers-etc/692567/2 "2014-07-08T00:25:16Z")
Mikey Wild was a bit of a minor celebrity in Philadephia when I lived there. He had a small art show in a cafe I used to go to, someone I knew had a boyfriend who was making a film about his life and when he passed it was in the local paper. I bought one of his pieces once for a dollar. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2014, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/low-intelligence-and-retardation-in-great-artists-poets-philosophers-etc/692567/3 "2014-07-08T01:04:52Z")
I am going to go with “no” on this. There might, possibly be some cases of “interesting” poets or artists (certainly not philosophers) who may, conjecturally, have been examples of [savant syndrome](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savant_syndrome) (not that that necessarily implies low IQ), but I doubt that any such would rise to anywhere near the level of being considered “great”. _Great_ art implies not just vividness or originality, but intellectual complexity and depth. Of course, IQ tests were not invented until about 100 years ago, so anyone’s intelligence before that is a matter of conjecture, and can only be guessed at (very roughly) from the quality of their achievements. It is worth noting, also, that many people with high measured IQs achieve very little of any significance. Philosophy is all about complex chains of reasoning, so doing philosophy, even at a mediocre, let alone “great”, level, most certainly requires considerable intellectual resources. ---
**Author:** ![gracefulfatsheba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a3d4f5/32.png) [@gracefulfatsheba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gracefulfatsheba)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2014, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/low-intelligence-and-retardation-in-great-artists-poets-philosophers-etc/692567/4 "2014-07-08T01:34:20Z")
I was prompted to ask this because I recently heard a quip about Andy Warhol’s allegedly low IQ (an alleged fact that seems to be apocryphal in nature). It made me wonder if there were other ‘major’ cultural figures considered to have been low intelligence. ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2014, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/low-intelligence-and-retardation-in-great-artists-poets-philosophers-etc/692567/5 "2014-07-08T01:41:23Z")
Personally I’m not a fan of Warhol’s art, but to say he was unintelligent based on IQ tests says more about the uselessness of IQ tests than anything else. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2014, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/low-intelligence-and-retardation-in-great-artists-poets-philosophers-etc/692567/6 "2014-07-08T02:13:39Z")
I think he liked to have people think he was retarded and played it up for the cameras. And I wouldn’t be surprised if he started the rumor himself. ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2014, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/low-intelligence-and-retardation-in-great-artists-poets-philosophers-etc/692567/7 "2014-07-08T04:03:17Z")
There has been an exhibition of paintings by George W Bush. Would that count? ---
**Author:** ![TreacherousCretin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treacherouscretin/32/476_2.png) [@TreacherousCretin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TreacherousCretin)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2014, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/low-intelligence-and-retardation-in-great-artists-poets-philosophers-etc/692567/8 "2014-07-08T04:18:10Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > There has been an exhibition of paintings by George W Bush. Would that count? No. The qualifier was “great” artists. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2014, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/low-intelligence-and-retardation-in-great-artists-poets-philosophers-etc/692567/9 "2014-07-08T04:29:14Z")
I don’t know how Warhol’s grades were, but he attended at least some college. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2014, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/low-intelligence-and-retardation-in-great-artists-poets-philosophers-etc/692567/10 "2014-07-08T11:35:09Z")
Yeah, Warhol was retarded like a fox. ---
**Author:** ![Sr\_Siete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6de8d8/32.png) [@Sr\_Siete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sr_Siete)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2014, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/low-intelligence-and-retardation-in-great-artists-poets-philosophers-etc/692567/11 "2014-07-08T11:42:34Z")
Now, I once listened to a podcast about Mozart, and the guy talking about it was a really big fan and kept trying to defend his image and how he was represented in the movie… but his constant defending of Wolfgangus (apparently his actual birth name, since back then latinized versions of German names were all the rage. Don’t ask.) actually made the great composer look dumber and dumber. He was all “they say that he acted like a child, but would a child speak about sex like this?” and then recited some sort of dumb pornographic poem he wrote to his cousin, and I kept thinking “well, yes. That’s not something an adult would write.” So, yeah, I’m nominating Mozart. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2014, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/low-intelligence-and-retardation-in-great-artists-poets-philosophers-etc/692567/12 "2014-07-08T17:13:54Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > There has been an exhibition of paintings by George W Bush. Would that count? **Moderator Note** It counts as a political jab, which is against the rules of GQ. No warning issued, but let’s refrain in the future. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Magicicada](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c67d28/32.png) [@Magicicada](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magicicada)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2014, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/low-intelligence-and-retardation-in-great-artists-poets-philosophers-etc/692567/13 "2014-07-08T18:22:56Z")
I had in mind that there was at least some speculation that Louis Wain–the guy who shows up in abnormal psych textbooks with the cat paintings that go from cuddly to fever dream trippy–was mentally challenged from birth or childhood, long before developing schizophrenia, but a search of wikipedia does not confirm this, and I’ve got to go to work. (Also, I’m not certain if he was considered a great artist, or if his legacy involves illustrations in abnormal psychology textbooks.) ---
**Author:** ![CatherineZeta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@CatherineZeta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CatherineZeta)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2014, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/low-intelligence-and-retardation-in-great-artists-poets-philosophers-etc/692567/14 "2014-07-08T21:38:03Z")
I don’t know how much of a “great” artist he is, but Henry Darger is a major figure in outsider art and has been an influence on mainstream artists. I’m not sure of his IQ however he was a recluse who worked menial jobs most of his life and his work was not displayed until it was discovered after his death. He was likely somewhere on the autism spectrum. > **[Henry Darger](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Darger)** > > Henry Joseph Darger Jr. (/ˈdɑːrɡər/; April 12, 1892 – April 13, 1973) was an American writer, novelist and artist who worked as a hospital custodian in Chicago, Illinois. He has become famous for his posthumously discovered 15,145-page fantasy novel manuscript called The Story of the Vivian Girls, in What Is Known as the Realms of the Unreal, of the Glandeco-Angelinian War Storm, Caused by the Child Slave Rebellion, along with several hundred drawings and watercolor illustrations for the story ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2014, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/low-intelligence-and-retardation-in-great-artists-poets-philosophers-etc/692567/15 "2014-07-08T22:02:49Z")
Why would you expect a great artist to be highly intelligent, necessarily? Intelligence and artistic creativity are two separate things. I’m not aware of IQ tests or SAT / ACT scores for great artists, but I’m sure they are out there. ---
**Author:** ![D18](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@D18](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D18)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2014, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/low-intelligence-and-retardation-in-great-artists-poets-philosophers-etc/692567/16 "2014-07-08T22:13:59Z")
> [@Sr\_Siete](#): > > Now, I once listened to a podcast about Mozart, and the guy talking about it was a really big fan and kept trying to defend his image and how he was represented in the movie… but his constant defending of Wolfgangus (apparently his actual birth name, since back then latinized versions of German names were all the rage. Don’t ask.) actually made the great composer look dumber and dumber. > > He was all “they say that he acted like a child, but would a child speak about sex like this?” and then recited some sort of dumb pornographic poem he wrote to his cousin, and I kept thinking “well, yes. That’s not something an adult would write.” > > So, yeah, I’m nominating Mozart. Is this a woosh? Just setting aside his musical genius, we have numerous letters he wrote during his travels and they are quite literate. Whether or not he otherwise would have had a high IQ we’ll never know, but there’s no evidence he was stupid. He just liked jokes about poop, dicks, and vaginas. He would have fit in quite nicely on the dope! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2014, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/low-intelligence-and-retardation-in-great-artists-poets-philosophers-etc/692567/17 "2014-07-08T22:29:24Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > I am going to go with “no” on this. > > There might, possibly be some cases of “interesting” poets or artists (certainly not philosophers) who may, conjecturally, have been examples of [savant syndrome](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savant_syndrome) (not that that necessarily implies low IQ), but I doubt that any such would rise to anywhere near the level of being considered “great”. _Great_ art implies not just vividness or originality, but intellectual complexity and depth. Savant syndrome skills are memory feats. They never involve generating new information. Savants may be able to memorize Shakespeare plays, but unable to compose a Limerick. They can do amazing math in their heads, but none has ever come up with a novel proof or formula. Musical savants can sometimes play tunes from memory they have heard only once, but they don’t compose original tunes. I took a class in neurochemistry in college where the professor commented that forgetting was a normal function of the brain, and being unable to forget was as much a dysfunction as forgetting too much, even if it was a neat parlor trick. > [@lisiate](#): > > Personally I’m not a fan of Warhol’s art, but to say he was unintelligent based on IQ tests says more about the uselessness of IQ tests than anything else. I remember reading some place that Warhol was pathologically shy as a child, and sometimes came across as stupid, because he was too shy to engage in conversation or answer questions. He overcame it to a great extent, but still found interviews, especially in front of an audience, very difficult. Sometimes his shyness was interpreted as rudeness; other times people assumed he’d shown up to the interview stoned. Some people just thought he was odd. I read his diary, and the things he chose to record did make him come off as a little OCD, but he may have suspected his diary would be published some day (it was, posthumously), and he may have been posturing when he wrote it. It’s hard to know what to think about someone with a carefully constructed public persona. He may have benefited from Prozac, but I doubt he was retarded. For one thing, his art, whatever you think of it, was quite original. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2014, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/low-intelligence-and-retardation-in-great-artists-poets-philosophers-etc/692567/18 "2014-07-09T01:59:03Z")
> [@D18](#): > > Is this a woosh? Just setting aside his musical genius, we have numerous letters he wrote during his travels and they are quite literate. Whether or not he otherwise would have had a high IQ we’ll never know, but there’s no evidence he was stupid. He just liked jokes about poop, dicks, and vaginas. He would have fit in quite nicely on the dope! 😉 Right. If you read Mozat’s letters (and there were a lot of them…he was a big correspondent, especially to his sister), they don’t read as written by a stupid person. They tend to be really chatty and gossipy, and mixed in with that are concerns about his work…problems he’s having with staging an opera, revisions he has to make, parts he’s not happy about, parts that weren’t well received and that he’s being pressured to change. Here are three short letters he wrote to, I think, his father, when Mozart was in Munich working on the opera Odomeneo. They don’t come across as “dumb” to me: > [@](#): > > Munich, Dec. 30. 1780. > > A HAPPY New-Year! Excuse my writing much, for I am over head and ears in my work. I have not quite finished the third act; and as there is no extra ballet, but only an appropriate divertissement in the opera, I have the honor to write that music also, but I am glad of it, for now the music will be all by the same master. The third act will prove at least as good as the two others,—in fact, I believe, infinitely better, and that it might fairly be said, finis coronat opus. The Elector was so pleased at the rehearsal that, as I already wrote to you, he praised it immensely next morning at his reception, and also in the evening at court. I likewise know from good authority that, on the same evening after the final rehearsal, he spoke of my music to every one he conversed with, saying, “I was quite surprised; no music ever had such an effect on me; it is magnificent music.” The day before yesterday we had a recitative rehearsal at Wendling’s, and tried over the quartet all together. We repeated it six times, and now it goes well. The stumbling-block was Del Prato; the wretch can literally do nothing. His voice is not so bad, if he did not sing from the back of the throat; besides, he has no intonation, no method, no feeling. He is only one of the best of the youths who sing in the hope of getting a place in the choir of the chapel. Raaff was glad to find himself mistaken about the quartet, and no longer doubts its effect. Now I am in a difficulty with regard to Raaff’s last air, and you must help me out of it. He cannot digest the rinvigorir and ringiovenir, and these two words make the whole air hateful to him. It is true that mostrami and vienmi are also not good, but the worst of all are the two final words; to avoid the shake on the i in the first word rinvigorir, I was forced to transfer it to the o. Raaff has now found, in the “Natal di Giove,” which is in truth very little known, an aria quite appropriate to this situation. I think it is the ad libitum aria, “Bell’ alme al ciel diletto” and he wishes me to write music for these words. He says, “No one knows it, and we need say nothing.” He is quite aware that he cannot expect the Abbate to alter this aria a third time, and he will not sing it as it is written. I beg you will send me an immediate reply. I shall conclude, for I must now write with all speed; the composing is finished, but not the writing out. > > My compliments to dear Thresel: the maid who waits on me here is also named Thresel, but, heavens! how inferior to the Linz Thresel in beauty, virtue, charms—and a thousand other merits! You probably know that the worthy musico Marquesi, the Marquessius di Milano, has been poisoned in Naples, but how? He was enamored of a Duchess, whose rightful lover became jealous, and sent three or four fellows to give him his choice between drinking poison out of a cup and being assassinated. He chose the former, but being an Italian poltroon he died ALONE, and allowed his murderers to live on in peace and quiet. I would at least (in my own room) have taken a couple with me into the next world, if absolutely obliged to die myself. Such an admirable singer is a great loss. Adieu! > [@](#): > > Munich, Jan. 3, 1780. > > MY head and my hands are so fully occupied with my third act, that it would not be wonderful if I turned into a third act myself, for it alone has cost me more trouble than the entire opera; there is scarcely a scene in it which is not interesting to the greatest degree. The accompaniment of the underground music consists merely of five instruments, namely, three trombones and two French horns, which are placed on the spot whence the voice proceeds. The whole orchestra is silent at this part. > > The grand rehearsal positively takes place on the 20th, and the first performance on the 22d. All you will both require is to bring one black dress, and another for every-day wear, when you are only visiting intimate friends where there is no ceremony, and thus save your black dress a little; and if my sister likes, one pretty dress also, that she may go to the ball and the Academie Masquee. > > Herr von Robinig is already here, and sends his regards to you. I hear that the two Barisanis are also coming to Munich; is this true? Heaven be praised that the cut on the finger of the Archbishop was of no consequence! Good heavens! how dreadfully I was alarmed at first! Cannabich thanks you for your charming letter, and all his family beg their remembrances. He told me you had written very humorously. You must have been in a happy mood. > > No doubt we shall have a good many corrections to make in the third act when on the stage; as for instance scene sixth, after Arbace’s aria, the personages are marked, “Idomeneo, Arbace, &c., &c.” How can the latter so instantly reappear on the spot? Fortunately he might stay away altogether. In order to make the matter practicable, I have written a somewhat longer introduction to the High Priest’s recitative. After the mourning chorus the King and his people all go away, and in the following scene the directions are, “Idomeneo kneels down in the Temple.” This is impossible; he must come accompanied by his whole suite. A march must necessarily be introduced here, so I have composed a very simple one for two violins, tenor, bass, and two hautboys, to be played a mezza voce, and during this time the King appears, and the Priests prepare the offerings for the sacrifice. The King then kneels down and begins the prayer. > > In Elettra’s recitative, after the underground voice has spoken, there ought to be marked exeunt. I forgot to look at the copy written for the press to see whether it is there, and whereabouts it comes. It seems to me very silly that they should hurry away so quickly merely to allow Madlle. Elettra to be alone. > > I have this moment received your few lines of January 1st. When I opened the letter I chanced to hold it in such a manner that nothing but a blank sheet met my eyes. At last I found the writing. I am heartily glad that I have got an aria for Raaff, as he was quite resolved to introduce the air he had discovered, and I could not possibly (N. B., with a Raaff) have arranged in any other way than by having Varesco’s air printed, but Raaff’s sung. I must stop, or I shall waste too much time. Thank my sister very much for her New-Year’s wishes, which I heartily return. I hope we shall soon be right merry together. Adieu! Remembrances to friends, not forgetting Ruscherle. Young Eck sends her a kiss, a sugar one of course. > [@](#): > > Munich, Jan. 10, 1780. > My greatest piece of news is that the opera is put off for a week. The grand rehearsal is not to take place till the 27th—N. B., my birthday—and the opera itself on the 29th. Why? Probably to save Count Seeau two hundred gulden. I, indeed, am very glad, because we can now rehearse frequently and more carefully. You should have seen the faces of the Robinigs when I told them this news. Louisa and Sigmund are delighted to stay; but Lise, that SNEAKING MISERY, has such a spiteful Salzburg tongue that it really drives me distracted. Perhaps they may still remain, and I hope so on Louisa’s account. In addition to many other little altercations with Count Seeau, I have had a sharp contention with him about the trombones. I call it so, because I was obliged to be downright rude, or I never should have carried my point. Next Saturday the three acts are to be rehearsed in private. I got your letter of the 8th, and read it with great pleasure; the burlesque, too, I like very much. Excuse my writing more at this time; for, in the first place, as you see, my pen and ink are bad, and, in the second, I have still a couple of airs to write for the last ballet. I hope you will send no more such letters as the last, of only three or four lines. ---
**Author:** ![typoink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@typoink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/typoink)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2014, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/low-intelligence-and-retardation-in-great-artists-poets-philosophers-etc/692567/19 "2014-07-09T03:41:13Z")
> [@CatherineZeta](#): > > I don’t know how much of a “great” artist he is, but Henry Darger is a major figure in outsider art and has been an influence on mainstream artists. I’m not sure of his IQ however he was a recluse who worked menial jobs most of his life and his work was not displayed until it was discovered after his death. He was likely somewhere on the autism spectrum. > > [Henry Darger - Wikipedia](http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Darger) I came in here to mention Darger. “Great artist” is a loaded term (especially in a case like Darger where it is extremely difficult to seperate the art and the artist), but I think it’s hard to deny how visually striking some of his work can be. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2014, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/low-intelligence-and-retardation-in-great-artists-poets-philosophers-etc/692567/20 "2014-07-09T03:47:09Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Why would you expect a great artist to be highly intelligent, necessarily? > > Intelligence and artistic creativity are two separate things. > > I’m not aware of IQ tests or SAT / ACT scores for great artists, but I’m sure they are out there. True, but until very recently, being considered a great artist required the ability to function socially, negotiate a decent contract, manage a team… that’s not something a person who’s “on the slow side” or “socially challenged” will be able to do by himself. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/low-intelligence-and-retardation-in-great-artists-poets-philosophers-etc/692567.md?page=2)