# Lower-class diets in the Victorian era **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 23, 2012, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lower-class-diets-in-the-victorian-era/622855 "2012-05-23T17:35:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![ouryL](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ouryl/32/6067_2.png) [@ouryL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ouryL)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lower-class-diets-in-the-victorian-era/622855/41 "2012-05-26T00:41:46Z")
Ragout…no not _rag out_ but like the italian ragu. A stew of crap. ---
**Author:** ![hildea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ebca7d/32.png) [@hildea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hildea)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lower-class-diets-in-the-victorian-era/622855/42 "2012-05-26T09:53:05Z")
> [@](#): > > Both kept their eyes upon the pavement as they walked and talked, and every now and then one or the other would stoop and pick something up, never missing the stride the while. I thought it was cigar and cigarette stumps they were collecting, and for some time took no notice. Then I did notice. > > From the slimy sidewalk, they were picking up bits of orange peel, apple skin, and grape stems, and they were eating them. The pips of green gage plums they cracked between their teeth for the kernels inside. They picked up stray crumbs of bread the size of peas, apple cores so black and dirty one would not take them to be apple cores, and these things these two men took into their mouths, and chewed them, and swallowed them; and this, between six and seven o’clock in the evening of August 20, year of our Lord 1902, in the heart of the greatest, wealthiest, and most powerful empire the world has ever seen. From [“The People of the Abyss” by Jack London](http://london.sonoma.edu/Writings/PeopleOfTheAbyss/chapter8.html). ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [May 26, 2012, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lower-class-diets-in-the-victorian-era/622855/43 "2012-05-26T17:04:16Z")
Stews made from cheap cuts of meat and root vegetables like [Lobscouse](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scouse_(food)) and [Lancashire hotpot](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lancashire_hotpot). Lobscouse was found all over northern Europe (and still is — it was being sold in Hamburg restaurants when we were there a few weeks ago, and it’s definitely still being eaten on Merseyside) as it was spread by sailors. Lancashire hotpot, almost always made from mutton or lamb scrag-end, was also cooked slowly in the ovens of bakeries after they had finished baking the morning bread or left on a range all day. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lower-class-diets-in-the-victorian-era/622855/44 "2012-05-28T12:34:23Z")
> [@Colophon](#): > > [Pie.](http://files.exclusivelyfood.com.au/uploaded_images/meatpie9-721060.JPG) > > [Pasty.](http://blog.kyliesgenes.com/wp-content/uploads/cornish-pasty.jpg) > > It’s not rocket surgery. > > (I have no idea what the shiny metal thing with spikes is in the second photograph, but such tools are never involved in the consumption of pasties in the real world.) I’ve always thought of the stegasaurus-style pasty as a modern thing. Traditionally, they were folded _over_ and seamed along the curved edge, like [this](http://www.cornishpastyassociation.co.uk/pasties.html), weren’t they? (please don’t tell me the thing about Cornish tin miners using the edge crust for a handle isn’t a myth…) ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lower-class-diets-in-the-victorian-era/622855/45 "2012-05-28T12:49:21Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > I’ve always thought of the stegasaurus-style pasty as a modern thing. Traditionally, they were folded _over_ and seamed along the curved edge, like [this](http://www.cornishpastyassociation.co.uk/pasties.html), weren’t they? > (please don’t tell me the thing about Cornish tin miners using the edge crust for a handle isn’t a myth…) I think you’re right. I actually linked to the pic I did as the other ones looked too much like pies. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Becky2844](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Becky2844](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Becky2844)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lower-class-diets-in-the-victorian-era/622855/46 "2012-05-28T13:15:07Z")
> [@purplehorseshoe](#): > > Was the meat cooked beforehand? It seems like she cut up a roast that was “medium,” and it cooked further in the pastie. I know they took quite a while to cook, so maybe the temp was around 325 degrees. (I haven’t made them in many years. If I can find the recipe I’ll put it in Cafe Society.) ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lower-class-diets-in-the-victorian-era/622855/47 "2012-05-28T16:22:49Z")
I don’t think a lot of the working class people had stoves/ovens at home…they probably got by on cold foods (bread, cheese, cooked meats) and varied the routine with food cooked at the bakers. A fair proportion of the population could afford fish and chips-as these shops were everywhere. Did British bars/taverns/pubs offer “free lunches”? In the American cities of the post-Civil War years, most bars had a sandwich or hot food for patrons-provided you bought a drink. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lower-class-diets-in-the-victorian-era/622855/48 "2012-05-28T16:33:48Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > I don’t think a lot of the working class people had stoves/ovens at home..they probably got by on cold foods (bread, cheese, cooked meats) and varied the routine with food cooked at the bakers. Note a fairly large exception, though, for the significant proportion of working-class people who were “in service”, i.e., live-in servants in the houses of middle- or upper-class employers. An employer’s kitchen staff cooked the meals not only for “the family” but also for themselves and all the other servants. Servants didn’t eat all the same foods as their employers, but they definitely got hot meals most of the time. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2012, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lower-class-diets-in-the-victorian-era/622855/49 "2012-05-28T20:20:48Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > I’ve always thought of the stegasaurus-style pasty as a modern thing. FYI, “stegosaurus” is spelled with an “o”; forget what you saw in Spielberg’s _Jurassic Park_. I had Cornish pasties in Cornwall (England), and remember them as being crimped along the top. According to legend, they were indeed invented so that tin miners could bring a hearty lunch to work that they could eat with no mess. The ones I had were packed with root vegetables and were delicious. I had them with beer in a country pub. I would imagine if you lived in Victorian England, you would have eaten potatoes … lots and lots of potatoes! I remember reading _Silas Marner_, and he spent an entire afternoon boiling a hunk of bacon on the stove.\* But then, he lived in the countryside, not a filthy, overpopulated city… \*Don’t bother trying this. I did, and it sucked! ---
**Author:** ![Brynhildr\_Budladottir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Brynhildr\_Budladottir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brynhildr_Budladottir)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lower-class-diets-in-the-victorian-era/622855/50 "2013-12-19T12:23:50Z")
Not sure if this is considered a zombie thread but… In _Oliver Twist_ (published in the early Victorian era) Fagin’s gang seem to live on sausages and cheap gin. ---
**Author:** ![Jake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jake)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lower-class-diets-in-the-victorian-era/622855/51 "2013-12-19T14:44:16Z")
They had beans for breakfast, water for lunch, an swell up for dinner! ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lower-class-diets-in-the-victorian-era/622855/52 "2013-12-19T14:57:13Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Get a copy of [What Jane Austen Ate and Charles Dickens Knew.](http://www.amazon.com/Austen-Charles-Dickens-Whist--Nineteenth-Century/dp/0671882368/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1337800433&sr=8-1) Then get a copy of [At Home: A History of Private Life](http://www.amazon.com/At-Home-Short-History-Private/dp/0767919394/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1337800556&sr=1-1). Then watch [The Supersizers Go…](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Supersizers...) on The Cooking Channel. Please don’t watch those assholes - they make fun of everything for television purposes. I watched the series because I do historical recreationism and specialize in cooking and while the food shown was correct, they themselves were supercilious jackasses. The books themselves are good suggestions. ---
**Author:** ![Springtime\_for\_Spacers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Springtime\_for\_Spacers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Springtime_for_Spacers)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2013, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lower-class-diets-in-the-victorian-era/622855/53 "2013-12-19T18:15:55Z")
> [@Springtime\_for\_Spacers](#): > > They ate a helluva lot of oysters, which could be served as fast food. I’m adding to this now that I’ve seen the OP was asking about utensils. Oysters from a shop were served in the shell with condiments, including salt vinegar and lemon. Customers were provided with a wooden fork or spike to eat with and sometimes just ate their oysters standing up at the counter. The poor in general ate similar foods to the middle classes but often adulterated. As someone else said they ate a lot of bread and butter on which they may have spread jam, very low fruit jam, quite possibly made with artificial flavourings. One of the most peculiar jobs I have ever heard of was women employed to roll tiny wood chips between their fingers to make pretend pips for pretend raspberry jam. The rural poor of course would have had the advantage of finding free fruit in the hedgerows, especially blackberries. Milk, especially in the cities was often watered down. people complained of London “blue” milk. Grocers in the poorer parts of town sold nasty cuts of meat and offal in tiny quantities and sausages made with all the horrid bits and a lot of other stuff that wasn’t meat at all. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2013, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lower-class-diets-in-the-victorian-era/622855/54 "2013-12-21T05:43:22Z")
> [@purplehorseshoe](#): > > Was the meat cooked beforehand? > [@Becky2844](#): > > It seems like she cut up a roast that was “medium,” and it cooked further in the pastie. I know they took quite a while to cook, so maybe the temp was around 325 degrees. (I haven’t made them in many years. If I can find the recipe I’ll put it in Cafe Society.) Yes, because they were commonly made from ‘leftovers’. The meat was from the roast that was cooked earller that week, so already cooked. Often the veggies (potatoes, turnips, onions) were also pre-cooked leftovers. The good cooks had the trick of knowing how much water to add so that the contents aren’t over-cooked inside the dough. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2013, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lower-class-diets-in-the-victorian-era/622855/55 "2013-12-21T06:12:46Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > The British often call them pies though. In fact, on those odd occaisions when I’ve seen them in the states, they are called meat pies. No we don’t. Pasties are different from pies. If Americans get it wrong, that is not our fault. Pasties are often still referred to as “Cornish pasties”. Although they are popular all over Britain today, very likely in the Victorian era they were largely confined to the Cornwall region, where, I believe, they commonly served as a sort of packed lunch for the tin miners, when that industry still flourished in that area. Actual meat pies, especially pork pies, would probably have been common in the rest of Britain (and are still quite common today). ---
**Author:** ![slaphead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@slaphead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slaphead)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lower-class-diets-in-the-victorian-era/622855/56 "2013-12-26T11:38:54Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > No we don’t. Pasties are different from pies. If Americans get it wrong, that is not our fault. Imagine the squawking and shrieking if some dirty forrin’ told a bunch of americans that a hamburger was just a small flat round meatloaf. That’s roughly the level of disagreement you’ll get from a brit to the pie=pasty statement. One point I haven’t seen mentioned yet is that meat pies are generally made in a (pie) dish, but a pasty is always made on a tray. > [@njtt](#): > > Pasties are often still referred to as “Cornish pasties”. Although they are popular all over Britain today Indeed, there are at least two national chains selling them, plus lord only knows how many independents. Needless to say, an arms race broke out years ago. Pork, apple and stuffing pasty, anyone? [http://www.thepastyshop.com/menu/](http://www.thepastyshop.com/menu/) [http://www.westcornwallpasty.co.uk/menu/food/](http://www.westcornwallpasty.co.uk/menu/food/) Back on topic - I seem to remember that during this time period staff in wealthier households would sell scraps and leftovers to shopkeepers who would then in turn sell them on. So the poor might be eating second-hand food from the tables of the middle/upper classes. The cook would be expected to maintain a decent level of credit entries together with expenditures in the account book. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lower-class-diets-in-the-victorian-era/622855.md?page=2)