# Lower share of female regulars. What to do? **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [June 7, 2018, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lower-share-of-female-regulars-what-to-do/815612 "2018-06-07T16:44:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2018, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lower-share-of-female-regulars-what-to-do/815612/301 "2018-06-11T05:34:43Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > I agree 100% – indeed there is a lot of discrimination against men – we are discriminated in Divorce, male offenders get 63% [more time](https://www.law.umich.edu/newsandinfo/features/Pages/starr_gender_disparities.aspx) for the same crime, male DV victims are more likely to be arrested then get help. > > Unfortunately on many forums including SDMB there are posters who consider any mention of these issues and any compassion toward men to be a moral crime. > > On SDMB most offenders guilty of empathy toward men have been driven off the board. First they are subject to a long series of very personal attacks. If they respond in kind they will likely be banned. Others (like myself) participate rarely. This is not my experience at all. There was a recent thread about erectile dysfunction in which a female poster made an offensive post gloating about how she and her colleagues would bully and humiliate a male colleague. The posters who immediately spoke out against her behaviour included several women. The idea that there is a climate of disdain and harassment towards men here is an absurd one. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2018, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lower-share-of-female-regulars-what-to-do/815612/302 "2018-06-11T07:47:57Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Err, I don’t know if comparing Slug to a self-admitted rapist is any kind of defense here. Manda JO made a good point, and I agree with her. I was not comparing Sig the person to Robert Crumb the person: I was comparing artistic styles. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2018, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lower-share-of-female-regulars-what-to-do/815612/303 "2018-06-11T08:40:23Z")
> [@Mr.Nylock](#): > > Me, personally, I like it when I know that people think I’m trash or a loser or a dumb piece of shit for having a blue collar job, I enjoy how blunt and condescending **MSmith** is - its refreshing, get it all out. Not everyone is like that though, and maybe my situation isn’t analogous. > [@Guinastasia](#): > > You really think that kind of shit you take for having a blue collar job is the same as what women have to deal with? :dubious: I don’t think he’s saying it’s the exact same thing, I think he’s trying to relate what he’s reading to his own experiences. If the primary area where he experiences bigotry is in regards to what he does for a living then that experience might be how he frames and understands it in his own mind, enabling him to have empathy for others experiencing different forms of bigotry. That doesn’t mean he’s discounting the worse forms of bigotry. If I have a simple fracture of my shin I’m not going to pretend it’s as bad as if your leg had multiple compound fractures, but my having to have a cast, my pain, hobbling around on crutches, etc enables me to better empathize with you, even as I acknowledge how much worse your situation is. He even admits that his situation may not be analogous. I don’t see a jerk there, I see a guy trying to process something outside of his personal experience in terms he can relate to. In other words, it’s not a pissing contest or injury Olympics. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2018, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lower-share-of-female-regulars-what-to-do/815612/304 "2018-06-11T10:08:43Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > Manda JO made a good point, and I agree with her. I was not comparing Sig the person to Robert Crumb the person: I was comparing artistic styles. [Probably not a comparison you’d want to pursue too far, either: this is an excellent essay - with some disturbing stuff in it - on Crumb, the misogyny in his art, and his influence on other misogynists.](https://www.popmatters.com/no-girls-allowed-crumb-and-the-comix-counterculture-2495784021.html) ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2018, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lower-share-of-female-regulars-what-to-do/815612/305 "2018-06-11T11:58:44Z")
> [@Penfeather](#): > > [Probably not a comparison you’d want to pursue too far, either: this is an excellent essay - with some disturbing stuff in it - on Crumb, the misogyny in his art, and his influence on other misogynists.](https://www.popmatters.com/no-girls-allowed-crumb-and-the-comix-counterculture-2495784021.html) Interesting. In a sense, we are all (as a culture) still grappling with the five-year delay between 1968 and 1973 — my simplified shorthand for “civil rights/celebrating racial diversity/relaxing sexual hang-ups” and “women’s lib.” Along with R. Crumb, Frank Zappa exemplifies this delay. They both did their most influential creative work in that same five-year period. (For me, a small but telling example of that period is Mick Jagger’s comments captured in the 1970 film _Gimme Shelter_, e.g., “It’s nice to have a chick occasionally,” referring to Tina Turner as an opening act for the Stones.) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2018, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lower-share-of-female-regulars-what-to-do/815612/306 "2018-06-11T13:44:11Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > Manda JO made a good point, and I agree with her. I was not comparing Sig the person to Robert Crumb the person: I was comparing artistic styles. It was in an autobiographical comic that Crumb confessed to the rape, I don’t think you can separate artist and art that cleanly. Point being - Crumb’s real life clearly informed his art, seeping through into _how_ he portrayed women. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2018, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lower-share-of-female-regulars-what-to-do/815612/307 "2018-06-11T15:52:56Z")
sorry, double post. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2018, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lower-share-of-female-regulars-what-to-do/815612/308 "2018-06-11T15:54:11Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > It was in an autobiographical comic that Crumb confessed to the rape, I don’t think you can separate artist and art that cleanly. Point being - Crumb’s real life clearly informed his art, seeping through into _how_ he portrayed women. You are the only one who has brought up his history as a rapist, and you brought it up to complain about the subject having been raised. ??? Or is it just a convenient way to bury the conversation at hand? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2018, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lower-share-of-female-regulars-what-to-do/815612/309 "2018-06-11T16:16:56Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > You are the only one who has brought up his history as a rapist, and you brought it up to complain about the subject having been raised. I brought it up because defending Slug’s offensive art by going “Look, it’s in an edgy underground-comix style like this other guy’s art” is no defense when that other guy’s art is…even more problematic, to say the least. Here’s a nice little article that covers the basics, in a spoiler box because the sample art included is both NSFW and triggering for sexual violence [I did warn you](https://amazingcavalieri.blogspot.com/2017/01/r-crumb-is-sexual-predator.html). BTW, the argument was made that Slug is stylistically like Crumb. I admit, I don’t really see it - they’re both intended to offend the squares, but they’re not really similar outside that. But that’s besides my point. > [@](#): > > ??? Or is it just a convenient way to bury the conversation at hand? The point was raised that Slug is offputting/offensive to some women. A defense was raised that that basically was whataboutism, and I replied with a straight-up yourfaveisproblematic. How is that “burying” anything? It’s a clear flow of conversation. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2018, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lower-share-of-female-regulars-what-to-do/815612/310 "2018-06-11T17:03:49Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > A defense was raised that that basically was whataboutism One \*that \*too many in that sentence. Should read “A defense was raised that basically was whataboutism” ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2018, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lower-share-of-female-regulars-what-to-do/815612/311 "2018-06-11T21:54:31Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > I agree 100% – indeed there is a lot of discrimination against men – we are discriminated in Divorce, male offenders get 63% [more time](https://www.law.umich.edu/newsandinfo/features/Pages/starr_gender_disparities.aspx) for the same crime, male DV victims are more likely to be arrested then get help. > > Unfortunately on many forums including SDMB there are posters who consider any mention of these issues and any compassion toward men to be a moral crime. > > On SDMB most offenders guilty of empathy toward men have been driven off the board. First they are subject to a long series of very personal attacks. If they respond in kind they will likely be banned. Others (like myself) participate rarely. Were these shows of disdain or dismissal towards the fellows that you’re remembering in threads started **about** the abuse of a man/men, or were they in response to “whataboutmen?” posts that attempt to change the subject away from the abuse of women to the abuse of men? I mean, maybe you can show some examples of the former, but I’m willing to bet at least 75% of the time this happens is in response to whataboutmenist posts. Women are human beings, and we do eventually tire of every thread we start about women’s issues being derailed by guys who just neeeeeeed to remind people that abuse happens to men too. We know that, we don’t need to be told every single time we put forth an idea for discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Jane\_Elliot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jane_elliot/32/6166_2.png) [@Jane\_Elliot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jane_Elliot)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2018, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lower-share-of-female-regulars-what-to-do/815612/312 "2018-06-12T12:29:35Z")
Hey **CCitizen** , how about opening your own thread about the board’s reaction to male rights issues instead of this thread also being derailed to talk about men. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2018, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lower-share-of-female-regulars-what-to-do/815612/313 "2018-06-12T21:08:19Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > I think we had lower expectations. A lot of us accepted “boys will be boys” and understood that the internet was a boy’s space: girls were allowed, even welcome, but we understood that we were to take the role of the single girl character in a kid’s TV show: the token representative, providing a valued perspective, but an outlier all the same. > > You’ve seen reference to the great “no boob jokes” debacle. I think this was 7-8 years ago? Anyway, a bunch of women asked if we could start moderating “jokes” in serious threads about women’s issues. At the time, it was absolutely expected that if you started a thread asking about breast self-exams, someone would pop in and say “I’ll examine 'em for you!” or if you were asking what sort of top you could wear under a suit jacket to flatter a large bust, you’d have posts saying “I’m gonna need pics. Lots, from different angles”. This went on for YEARS and the women of the board just rolled with it: the internet is for boys, what do you expect? > > Anyway, when we finally brought it up and asked for a rule that posts like that be moderated, you would not believe the uproar. Some male posters got it right away and were totally supportive, but there was a significant number who said it would be the end of the world, that those jokes were an essential part of “board culture”, that women were being too uptight and couldn’t take a joke, that it would have a chilling effect on speech everywhere. > > Now that seems ridiculous. We made the change, it worked out fine. But I really think it shows that it’s not that the board has gotten worse, but that women have started to have a greater sense of being entitled to have an opinion about the tone. And what a lot of women have done is simply leave and find places that have tones they like better, and there are now plenty of those to choose from. IMHO, the increased dissatisfaction is the result of a couple of factors, both related to rising expectations. One is the greater sensitivity ala the #metoo movement. The other relates to the board political skew moving further and further to the left over the years. Left wingers are more likely to take a PC view of the “men have to listen to women” sort you see being expressed here. (You can see that correlation in the discussion of the issue here.) So as the membership became increasingly liberal, that viewpoint became stronger. From that vantage point, these demands are part of a demand for political correctness on these boards. To the extent that it’s accommodated, I would expect it to perpetuate itself, as the membership would skew even further, in that the board would increasingly appeal to those who are comfortable with and favor it. (I believe this has already happened, and the fact that the skew of the board has increased over time is the result of the initially smaller majority increasingly setting the tone, making it more comfortable for members of that majority etc. etc.) Of course, I’m fully aware that most members of the majority would be perfectly fine with that. But I would think the people running the place might want to take a step back and think long and hard about making this board a place where the rules are determined based on the particular ideology and mindset of the board majority. I don’t think that’s a long term recipe for success. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2018, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lower-share-of-female-regulars-what-to-do/815612/314 "2018-06-12T21:48:45Z")
What you see as insincere political correctness, I see as a request for simple respect. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2018, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lower-share-of-female-regulars-what-to-do/815612/315 "2018-06-12T21:57:38Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > What you see as insincere political correctness, I see as a request for simple respect. Why did you add the word “insincere” when characterizing what I see? I didn’t say anything of the sort. PC can be sincere or insincere. Political correctness and sincerity are orthogonal to each other. ---
**Author:** ![Sunny\_Daze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunny_daze/32/438_2.png) [@Sunny\_Daze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunny_Daze)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2018, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lower-share-of-female-regulars-what-to-do/815612/316 "2018-06-12T21:58:43Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > What you see as insincere political correctness, I see as a request for simple respect. I also object with your term “PC”. It implies an insincerity that is not present. This is not a hypocritical discussion by women because “liberal”. This is a real concern that I raised in a community that I trust enough to at least embark in the discussion. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2018, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lower-share-of-female-regulars-what-to-do/815612/317 "2018-06-12T22:03:43Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Why did you add the word “insincere” when characterizing what I see? I didn’t say anything of the sort. > > PC can be sincere or insincere. Political correctness and sincerity are orthogonal to each other. It is implied every time “PC” is used to characterize a language discussion. The implication is virtually always that demand is a capitulation to some litmus test of what “a good liberal” likes, and virtual never used out of respect for a genuine concern. It is a label used to undercut the acidity of an argument. But frankly, I don’t care. Take the word “insincere” out and my point stands just as strong. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2018, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lower-share-of-female-regulars-what-to-do/815612/318 "2018-06-12T22:15:57Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > It is implied every time “PC” is used to characterize a language discussion. The implication is virtually always that demand is a capitulation to some litmus test of what “a good liberal” likes, and virtual never used out of respect for a genuine concern. It is a label used to undercut the acidity of an argument. As I’ve always seen it used, PC is about the insistence that the rest of the world reflect your ideology. It has nothing to do with sincerity. > [@](#): > > But frankly, I don’t care. Take the word “insincere” out and my point stands just as strong. “simple respect” is an extremely subjective matter. In this case, I’m asserting that exactly what would constitute “simple respect”, and the amount of deference that is called for in the name of “simple respect”, is heavily influenced by liberal/feminist ideology, as evidenced by the correlation of posters to ideology shown in the comments to these various threads. [Personally, I think it’s ironic to the point of weirdness that two of the big complaints in this and related threads are “men keep poking into threads that are really for women only”, and “men keep making these threads which are aimed at men only and are not inclusive of women’s interests”. More generally, the whole mindset which defines the standards being called for in these threads reflects a worldview of women as being a brutally oppressed minority, such that they need special treatment in line with that view. Call it “simple respect” if you like, but that’s an ideological perspective.] ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [June 12, 2018, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lower-share-of-female-regulars-what-to-do/815612/319 "2018-06-12T22:53:00Z")
So you’d assert that white supremists pushing back on tolerant language are being politically correct for insisting that everyone adhere to their ideology? I think that is a truly singular point of view, and not one I’m inclined to engage with. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2018, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lower-share-of-female-regulars-what-to-do/815612/320 "2018-06-13T01:15:16Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > So you’d assert that white supremists pushing back on tolerant language are being politically correct for insisting that everyone adhere to their ideology? It’s hard to figure out what this even means in context, let alone to accept that I would assert this as you suggest. I suspect that you’ve badly mangled some sort of analogy (e.g. you have the sides flipped, or something). > [@](#): > > I think that is a truly singular point of view, and not one I’m inclined to engage with. This does not surprise me, and in fact is consistent with my post above. Of course, I did not put forth that viewpoint with any expectation that it would prevail. I’m quite familiar with the dominant board mindset. And WRT this issue specifically, you can see several liberals who took initial stances which deviated to one degree or another from the PC one but who came to realize that this was not an issue that they wanted to be on the wrong side of and they made sure to backtrack hard and firmly position themselves on the correct side of the issue going forward, and one moderator who came in for criticism along these lines has issued a mea culpa in this thread. So there is a lot of force behind the PC position here, and my full expectation is that it will prevail. But, at this point the board still allows contrary viewpoints on such matters so I offered up mine, as is my wont. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lower-share-of-female-regulars-what-to-do/815612.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lower-share-of-female-regulars-what-to-do/815612.md?page=17)