# Loyal to those loyal to me ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 24, 2011, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loyal-to-those-loyal-to-me/593894 "2011-08-24T14:22:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Reno\_Nevada](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Reno\_Nevada](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reno_Nevada)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2011, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loyal-to-those-loyal-to-me/593894/41 "2011-08-24T21:08:22Z")
I think the OP’s statement is fine. I think the more succinct version would be “Loyal to the loyal.” But I came here to mention an Otto von Bismark quote: > [@](#): > > With a gentleman I am always a gentleman and a half, and with a fraud I try to be a fraud and a half. ---
**Author:** ![SRB1988](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@SRB1988](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SRB1988)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2011, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loyal-to-those-loyal-to-me/593894/42 "2011-08-24T22:16:10Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > Or chinese characters that people think mean what they think they do. You may be right, but in the country I live it´s also the english language. > [@Cosmic Relief](#): > > If I wanted a short tattoo message that captured this sentiment, I would say “loyal to loyalty”. Or even just “loyalty”. > > The original sentence is grammatically correct. Some people might see it as vaguely threatening… “i don’t betray people who don’t betray me.” But o me it just sounds obvious, maybe even trite. Of course we don’t betray people who betray us. Of course loyalty is mutual, except in unusual circumstances. (forgive me for being harsh, but this is your lifetime skin we’re talking about). I know, of course it´s my lifetime skin, but I can´t understand that this could sound trite to someone. Do you have a tattoo or are you aginst tattoos generally? I´ve seen a lot of tattoos which are way more senseless than mine. It´s not the name of somebody or the name of my favorite club. It´s an attitude towards life. > [@arseNal](#): > > I also think the original is fine. Personally I don’t get any “screw me” connotation from it. > > jackdavinci’s “Loyal to the Loyal” is also good. It’s even more succinct and loses very little, if any, meaning. However “Loyal to the Faithful” IMO does not mean the exact same thing. I think what’s strong about using the same word twice is that it makes clear the reciprocal nature of the message. “Loyal to the Faithful” loses that. Again, IMO. Even tho this is GQ. We have the same opinion.Admittedly, I didn´t understand your last sentence ^^. > [@Omar\_Little](#): > > After I have had some time to think about it, I think you should get the following tattooed: > > _I am loyal to those that are loyal to me. This includes friends, family and girlfriends. If you have not been loyal to me then you really aren’t my friend. And if you are a girlfriend that has not been loyal to me, then it was not meant to be, because I don’t need a girlfriend that’s been cheating on me. And if you don’t want to be my friend, I don’t need friends like that. I will always be loyal to family. If you screw me, I will not neccessarily screw you, because that’s not what I mean here. Oh, and I’m a nice person._ > > You might want to reconsider the arm as a location, unless you’re willing to make the font size smaller. -\_- … ---
**Author:** ![SRB1988](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@SRB1988](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SRB1988)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2011, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loyal-to-those-loyal-to-me/593894/43 "2011-08-24T22:39:25Z")
> [@Reno\_Nevada](#): > > I think the OP’s statement is fine. I think the more succinct version would be “Loyal to the loyal.” But I came here to mention an Otto von Bismark quote: I´ll think about " Loyal to the loyal". Maybe I´ll chose this one,but “Loyal to those loyal to me” has nothing to do with the second part of your Bismark quote. The term " fraud" just doesn´t fit. ---
**Author:** ![iftheresaway](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ecae2f/32.png) [@iftheresaway](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iftheresaway)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2011, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loyal-to-those-loyal-to-me/593894/44 "2011-08-24T23:14:59Z")
> [@SRB1988](#): > > I´ll think about " Loyal to the loyal". Maybe I´ll chose this one,but “Loyal to those loyal to me” has nothing to do with the second part of your Bismark quote. The term " fraud" just doesn´t fit. Just make sure you’re happy with it; you don’t have to satisfy anyone else (and those who are loyal to you will love it because you do :D). The sentence as written in the title is correct, so if it sounds good to you, go for it. For the record, I don’t think it’s too long - I have two lines from a poem on my back, and my husband has two lines from a different poem on his chest. They make us happy. ---
**Author:** ![Autolycus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@Autolycus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Autolycus)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2011, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loyal-to-those-loyal-to-me/593894/45 "2011-08-25T02:02:06Z")
IMO, when I hear ‘loyal to those loyal to me,’ I get both meanings. The first meaning that pops into my head is that of like an alpha dog who fiercely protects his pack. That is a very nice image. But, then I think ‘what about people who aren’t in his pack?’ and that gives off a sorta threatening vibe. You sound like a nice person so I think most people would stick with the first meaning though. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2011, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loyal-to-those-loyal-to-me/593894/46 "2011-08-25T02:10:46Z")
I would just go with “Loyal to those loyal to me” so long as you’re happy with how long the phrase is. I think it sounds fine and gets across what you’re trying to say. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2011, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loyal-to-those-loyal-to-me/593894/47 "2011-08-25T02:12:31Z")
> [@jackdavinci](#): > > You could even go with > > LOYAL > to the > LOYAL > > or change it up > > loyal to the faithful > > or > > faithful to the loyal Loyal to the Loyal. I like that. > [@Autolycus](#): > > IMO, when I hear ‘loyal to those loyal to me,’ I get both meanings. The first meaning that pops into my head is that of like an alpha dog who fiercely protects his pack. That is a very nice image. But, then I think ‘what about people who aren’t in his pack?’ and that gives off a sorta threatening vibe. You sound like a nice person so I think most people would stick with the first meaning though. And agreed. Its outright message is that you’re loyal to those who deserve it. Its implied message is that you aren’t to those who don’t. Which is a cool enough message. ---
**Author:** ![JBDivmstr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b4bc9f/32.png) [@JBDivmstr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JBDivmstr)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2011, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loyal-to-those-loyal-to-me/593894/48 "2011-08-25T02:26:45Z")
> [@Cosmic Relief](#): > > If I wanted a short tattoo message that captured this sentiment, I would say “loyal to loyalty”. Or even just “loyalty”. > > The original sentence is grammatically correct. Some people might see it as vaguely threatening… “i don’t betray people who don’t betray me.” But o me it just sounds obvious, maybe even trite. Of course we don’t betray people who betray us. Of course loyalty is mutual, except in unusual circumstances. (forgive me for being harsh, but this is your lifetime skin we’re talking about). FWIW, I rather like “Loyal to loyalty”. The ‘loyal to those loyal to me’ is also very good. Just wondering though, should there be a comma inserted between those and loyal? “Loyal to those, loyal to me.” ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2011, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loyal-to-those-loyal-to-me/593894/49 "2011-08-25T06:00:24Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > Please share what country you’re from/in! I assumed Serbia, and born in 1988. ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2011, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loyal-to-those-loyal-to-me/593894/50 "2011-08-25T06:28:15Z")
> [@JBDivmstr](#): > > FWIW, I rather like “Loyal to loyalty”. The ‘loyal to those loyal to me’ is also very good. > Just wondering though, should there be a comma inserted between those and loyal? “Loyal to those, loyal to me.” No comma. That sentence would mean “I’m loyal to those people, and I’m loyal to myself”. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2011, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loyal-to-those-loyal-to-me/593894/51 "2011-08-25T07:11:59Z")
‘Loyal to the loyal’ is a neat little phrase, clearly a slogan, which (I think) is the sort of thing you probably want for a tattoo. ‘Loyal to those loyal to me’, because of the additional wording and precision, invites people to try to unpick the meaning - and they may well unpick it in a way that includes some of the threatening or negative aspects, as we’ve seen here. Not that this is a problem - it’s your choice, ultimately - but if you think about the sorts of slogans you might see on a riband underneath a military emblem or coat of arms, ‘Loyal to the Loyal’ is more the sort of thing you’d expect. ---
**Author:** ![JBDivmstr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b4bc9f/32.png) [@JBDivmstr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JBDivmstr)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2011, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loyal-to-those-loyal-to-me/593894/52 "2011-08-25T16:01:01Z")
> [@jackdavinci](#): > > No comma. That sentence would mean “I’m loyal to those people, and I’m loyal to myself”. Hmmm, I see what you mean. Once again, ignorance successfully fought. Thanks, jackdavinci! 😃 Would this be correct? “Loyal to those, that are loyal to me.” ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2011, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loyal-to-those-loyal-to-me/593894/53 "2011-08-25T16:23:57Z")
> [@JBDivmstr](#): > > Hmmm, I see what you mean. Once again, ignorance successfully fought. Thanks, jackdavinci! 😃 > > Would this be correct? “Loyal to those, that are loyal to me.” No. “Those that are loyal” is a complete noun phrase. All those words go together. Putting a comma in there would be like saying “I really hate pirates, of the Caribbean.” That’s not even a really good example because “pirates” still has a meaning without the modifier. “Those”, however, doesn’t mean a whole lot without some modifier either stated or implied. ---
**Author:** ![JBDivmstr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b4bc9f/32.png) [@JBDivmstr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JBDivmstr)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2011, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loyal-to-those-loyal-to-me/593894/54 "2011-08-25T16:53:44Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > No. “Those that are loyal” is a complete noun phrase. All those words go together. Putting a comma in there would be like saying “I really hate pirates, of the Caribbean.” That’s not even a really good example because “pirates” still has a meaning without the modifier. “Those”, however, doesn’t mean a whole lot without some modifier either stated or implied. So in order to be grammatically correct it would have to read, “Loyal to the people, that are loyal to me.”? (I’m assuming ‘the’ would be better than ‘those’.) Or is the comma completely unnecessary? Apologies to SRB1988 for the hijack. ---
**Author:** ![iftheresaway](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ecae2f/32.png) [@iftheresaway](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iftheresaway)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2011, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loyal-to-those-loyal-to-me/593894/55 "2011-08-25T17:08:48Z")
> [@JBDivmstr](#): > > So in order to be grammatically correct it would have to read, “Loyal to the people, that are loyal to me.”? (I’m assuming ‘the’ would be better than ‘those’.) > Or is the comma completely unnecessary? > > Apologies to SRB1988 for the hijack. Still no comma. “The people that are loyal to me” is one unit; you don’t want to split it with a comma. Sometimes it helps to read it out loud - would you naturally want to pause after “people”, if there were no comma? ---
**Author:** ![Long\_Time\_Lurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/2bfe46/32.png) [@Long\_Time\_Lurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Long_Time_Lurker)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2011, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loyal-to-those-loyal-to-me/593894/56 "2011-08-25T17:21:30Z")
Your original phrase is grammatically fine as written, and I think some people here are overly nitpicking it. To the extent it is open to some minor misinterpretations, it could make an interesting conversation piece. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2011, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loyal-to-those-loyal-to-me/593894/57 "2011-08-25T17:49:46Z")
Av8trix came up with the same thing I did. “Loyalty begets loyalty”. It’s a slightly more general statement, not as personal, but I picture it in a circle: loyalty - begets - loyalty - begets - which would connect back to the first one. Or what about a more motivating statement like “Inspire Loyalty”. It can be read as an admonition to ones self, or to others, to live in such a way as to inspire loyalty, which seems to be what you’re really getting at. It could also be read as a statement that the wearer inherently inspires loyalty. (Implied “I” inspire loyalty.) Or “Be Loyal, Inspire Loyalty” “Loyal to the Loyal” Could mean that you are loyal to anyone who has shown loyalty to any cause or person. That simply by having this quality they will earn yours for themselves. Not quite the same sentiment. I agree with those who felt that “Loyal to those loyal to me” although grammatically correct, does seem to be a message about someone who has been excluded from that group. My assumption would be that a group or part of a group had broken their faith with you somehow. ---
**Author:** ![JBDivmstr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b4bc9f/32.png) [@JBDivmstr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JBDivmstr)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2011, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loyal-to-those-loyal-to-me/593894/58 "2011-08-25T18:47:09Z")
> [@SRB1988](#): > > I always got a B in English lessons, but it´s a few years ago. > Maybe, I should speak and write more english again , in the future. > > I still remember my teacher telling me to \*\*\*leave commas out if I´m not sure \*\*\*😃 😉 and now I know why. > > Thanks for the correction! (bolding mine) I think _ **I** _ will take the advice of your teacher from now on. 😉 FWIW, I think that your grammar, punctuation and general usage of English are just fine, and after rereading the entire thread I think that your original phrase would be the best one to use for a tattoo. As many have already stated, it’s not too wordy and it conveys your feelings well. I think I speak for everyone here when I say, be sure and post a picture of your tat after you get it done. Again, sorry for the hijack earlier. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![DaveBfd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DaveBfd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DaveBfd)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2011, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loyal-to-those-loyal-to-me/593894/59 "2011-08-25T19:08:27Z")
saying loyal to the loyal implies you are unloyal to the unloyal “be nice to me or Ill screw you too” ---
**Author:** ![Pasta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@Pasta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pasta)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2011, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loyal-to-those-loyal-to-me/593894/60 "2011-08-26T01:45:06Z")
I also get the negative connotation. In fact, when I read the thread title, I assumed that I was entering a thread about something that some world dictator might have recently said. The issue is that “loyal” is not a word used very often. A person can probably go years without using it, and even then it is used usually in the context of pets (particularly dogs). When referring to a human, it is a strongly poetic word, and so the very use of it implies a deeper meaning. In this particular case, that subtle and deeper meaning would be “loyal to those loyal to me, in contrast to how I feel about others.” A quick look at an online thesaurus gives no fewer than 25 synonyms for loyal, each of which has a particular flavor to a native English ear. The word “loyal” itself stirs up images of hierarchy, class structure, and authority, even though a strict definition of the word may not include these concepts. Language is much more intricate than a collection of words with definitions. The phrase “loyal to those loyal to me”, either without context or even more so in the context of a tattoo (which already implies a strongly independent personality), can very easily be taken in the negative way described by many here, at least to a native speaker. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loyal-to-those-loyal-to-me/593894.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/loyal-to-those-loyal-to-me/593894.md?page=4)