# LSU Fake Field Goal: Legal? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 24, 2007, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lsu-fake-field-goal-legal/420316 "2007-09-24T16:01:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2007, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lsu-fake-field-goal-legal/420316/1 "2007-09-24T16:01:02Z")
In college football you are down if you have possesion of the ball and you knee touches the ground. Naturally, this rule is not in play for the holder on a field goal. In the LSU game this last Saturday they pulled off a fake where the holder recieved the ball, knee on the ground, then flipped it to the kicker over his shoulder who ran it in for a TD. [Here it is.](http://youtube.com/watch?v=tVQbtqF0dDU) How is this legal? I mean once he doesn’t in fact hold it for a FG he is not a FG holder. Did the refs blow it? ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2007, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lsu-fake-field-goal-legal/420316/2 "2007-09-24T16:09:21Z")
I think you have to assume that the “knee touches the ground” rule doesn’t come into play in this case until the holder stands up. Nothing to prevent him throwing a lateral to the kicker before he stands up. I like it. Field goal kicker as “dangerous running back”. Reminiscent of the “dangerous receiver” Efran Herrera. ---
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2007, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lsu-fake-field-goal-legal/420316/3 "2007-09-24T16:26:26Z")
You have to be downed by contact in American football. That means that unless a member of the defence touches you immediately before or while your knee/elbow/whatever touches the ground the play is still live. Edit: Hell, apparently that only applies to the NFL. My bad. ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2007, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lsu-fake-field-goal-legal/420316/4 "2007-09-24T16:31:28Z")
The exception applies “when an offensive player has simulated a kick or is in position to kick the ball held for a place-kick by a teammate”. No actual kick need take place, or fake field goals would be impossible. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2007, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lsu-fake-field-goal-legal/420316/5 "2007-09-24T16:35:08Z")
[QUOTE=Rysto] You have to be downed by contact in American football. That means that unless a member of the defence touches you immediately before or while your knee/elbow/whatever touches the ground the play is still live. Edit: Hell, apparently that only applies to the NFL. My bad. [/QUOTE] No kidding? All these years and I’ve never noticed. So if you trip over yourself in college football, you’re down? ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2007, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lsu-fake-field-goal-legal/420316/6 "2007-09-24T16:42:22Z")
[QUOTE=pulykamell] No kidding? All these years and I’ve never noticed. So if you trip over yourself in college football, you’re down? [/QUOTE] Yep. One of the major rule differences between college and the pros. Occasionally, rookie NFL players forget that they can get up and keep running if they trip. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2007, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lsu-fake-field-goal-legal/420316/7 "2007-09-24T16:42:46Z")
**Freddy** I hate to be a pain, but do you have a cite? I always thought that if the kicker wanted to do something like the LSU holder did, he would have to pick his knee up. **pulykamell** , yes if a player fell onhis own accord he would be down in college. ---
**Author:** ![yabob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yabob/32/2821_2.png) [@yabob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yabob)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2007, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lsu-fake-field-goal-legal/420316/8 "2007-09-24T16:48:40Z")
In fact, here’s somebody’s article on the differences between college and pro rules: [http://www.helium.com/tm/304857/there-major-differences-between](http://www.helium.com/tm/304857/there-major-differences-between) > [@](#): > > It’s always funny to see NFL rookies forget this rule. I remember when Plaxico Burress was a rookie wide receiver for the Steelers, he caught a long pass of 40 yards or so, but had to dive and get it, and so was laying on the ground when he caught it. He got up and celebrated his good play, and spiked the ball triumphantly in the turf. Suddenly Plaxico’s good play turned into a bonehead play; the live ball Plax “fumbled” was recovered by the defense. Heh. ---
**Author:** ![zut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zut/32/2875_2.png) [@zut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zut)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2007, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lsu-fake-field-goal-legal/420316/9 "2007-09-24T17:14:44Z")
[QUOTE=Gangster Octopus] **Freddy** I hate to be a pain, but do you have a cite? I always thought that if the kicker wanted to do something like the LSU holder did, he would have to pick his knee up. [/QUOTE] From the [NCAA rulebook (pdf)](http://www.ncaa.org/library/rules/2006/2006_football_rules.pdf), Rule 4, section 1, Article 3b: > [@](#): > > A live ball becomes dead and an official shall sound his whistle or declare it dead: > > When any part of the runner’s body, except his hand or foot, touches the ground or when the runner is tackled or otherwise falls and loses possession of the ball as he contacts the ground with any part of his body, except his hand or foot. (Exception: The ball remains alive when an offensive player has simulated a kick or is in position to kick the ball held for a place kick by a teammate. The ball may be kicked, passed or advanced by rule) (A.R. 4-1-3-I). ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2007, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lsu-fake-field-goal-legal/420316/10 "2007-09-24T17:15:01Z")
[QUOTE=Gangster Octopus] **Freddy** I hate to be a pain, but do you have a cite? I always thought that if the kicker wanted to do something like the LSU holder did, he would have to pick his knee up. [/QUOTE] Here is your citation: NCAA Football Rules Rule 4: Ball in Play, Dead Ball, Out of Bounds Section 1: Ball in Play; Dead Ball Article 3: Ball Declared Dead Alive ball becomes dead and an official shall sound his whistle or declare it dead: b. When any part of the runner’s body, except his hand or foot, touches the ground or when the runner is tackled or otherwise falls and loses possession of the ball as he contacts the ground with any part of his body, except his hand or foot. (Exception: The ball remains alive when an offensive player has simulated a kick or is in position to kick the ball held for a place kick by a teammate. The ball may be kicked, passed or advanced by rule) (A.R. 4-1-3-I). ---
**Author:** ![zut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zut/32/2875_2.png) [@zut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zut)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2007, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lsu-fake-field-goal-legal/420316/11 "2007-09-24T17:15:56Z")
Hah ha! ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2007, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lsu-fake-field-goal-legal/420316/12 "2007-09-24T17:31:49Z")
Thanks! Ignorance defeated once again. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2007, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lsu-fake-field-goal-legal/420316/13 "2007-09-24T19:47:07Z")
[QUOTE=zut] Hah ha! [/QUOTE] Yeah, yeah, it’s what I get for not being a cut and paste addict. 😃 Who am I kidding?? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2007, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lsu-fake-field-goal-legal/420316/14 "2007-09-24T22:13:28Z")
The pros used to have an even more liberal rule. A player was not down until his forward motion stopped. If he was tackled and slid out, he could get up and cntinue running. Or he got his forward motion to the point he slid, if when he stopped, someone piled on him. Naturally this rule encouraged late hits (which, inevitably, were legal) and caused lots of injuries. It was changed sometime in the '50s, IIRC. Now I have a question. The rule, as cited seems not to allow the holder to get up and throw, only the kicker or someone else. Since when I have seen fake field goal attempts it is always the holder who gets up and throws, the interpretation must be different from the actual words, no? ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2007, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lsu-fake-field-goal-legal/420316/15 "2007-09-24T22:54:43Z")
[QUOTE=Hari Seldon] Now I have a question. The rule, as cited seems not to allow the holder to get up and throw, only the kicker or someone else. Since when I have seen fake field goal attempts it is always the holder who gets up and throws, the interpretation must be different from the actual words, no? [/QUOTE] Need to learn how to read like a lawyer. 😛 There is nothing that says that the kicker is the only person who can do anything. Indeed, it makes no sense to think that, because the sentence is an exception to the general rule that the ball would be down. Think this through: without the exception, the ball would be down the instant that the holder received it, assuming he had at least one knee on the ground! But you can’t just be a “holder” and have the exception apply. The ball is down **unless** someone is lined up to kick the ball, or has simulated kicking the ball. As long as that is true, the ball is not down when the holder receives it on one knee. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2007, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lsu-fake-field-goal-legal/420316/16 "2007-09-24T23:47:39Z")
That clip was priceless, if only for the look on Steve Spurrier’s face after the TD. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2007, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lsu-fake-field-goal-legal/420316/17 "2007-09-25T02:27:05Z")
[QUOTE=yabob] Yep. One of the major rule differences between college and the pros. Occasionally, rookie NFL players forget that they can get up and keep running if they trip. [/QUOTE] And rookie NRL corners will sometimes forget to go over and pat the receiver who did a diving catch. ---
**Author:** ![Cyberhwk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7993a0/32.png) [@Cyberhwk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyberhwk)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2007, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lsu-fake-field-goal-legal/420316/18 "2007-09-25T10:59:16Z")
That’s a dangerous ass fake though. That holder misjudges the throw or the kicker bobbles the ball that’s an easy 6 in the other direction. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2007, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lsu-fake-field-goal-legal/420316/19 "2007-09-25T14:57:13Z")
[QUOTE=Cyberhwk] That’s a dangerous ass fake though. [/QUOTE] True. Basically blind over-the-shoulder flip. No doubt they’ve worked on it a thousand times in practice, and well-executed like that it’s a thing of beauty, but if they fuck it up they look like total jackholes. And yeah, Spurrier’s expression was hilarious. Not mad, just a sort of resigned yet respectful, “Yeah, you got me.” ---
**Author:** ![aktep](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f0a364/32.png) [@aktep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aktep)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2007, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lsu-fake-field-goal-legal/420316/20 "2007-09-25T20:51:44Z")
FWIW, the high school rules used in the 48 states not named Texas and Massachusetts require the holder to have his knee off the ground on a fake like this. In NCAA, football the way God intended it, this is legal - probably. The holder technically needs to release the ball before the kicker crosses behind him. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lsu-fake-field-goal-legal/420316.md?page=2)